The Unexpected Career Podcast

Steve Wong: Marketing, Chef, Personal Trainer

• Megan Dunford • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Season 1 Episode 6: Steve shares his unconventional career journey through Marketing, a stint as a chef and now as a personal trainer. He has not been afraid to walk away when something is no longer a fit and experiment to figure out what he might want to do next.

If you are looking for a trainer or fitness class in London, check out Steve's website: https://totahealth.fitness/

Book Recommendation: Working Identify by Herminia Ibarra - https://herminiaibarra.com/working-identity-book/

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Welcome to the unexpected career podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I'm Megan Dunford. And as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I am passionate about reducing the pressure on young people around going to university. What to take in school and on getting that right. First job. My guest today is Steve Wong. After years in marketing, both on the agency and the corporate side. With a stint as a chef in between. Is now a fitness instructor and personal trainer. I found Steve's journey, inspiring and instructive as he was willing to take chances and experiment and create new opportunities along the way.

Megan:

Thank you, and welcome to the unexpected career podcast. I'm really excited to jump into your career journey and hear all the really different and amazing things you've done and how you made those decisions along the way.

Steve:

Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I always feel weird about these kind of things like. I feel weird about photos of myself and videos of myself and all the over myself. Let alone talking about myself, but here we are.

Megan:

I think that's that's pretty normal. Awesome. Let's start right from the beginning. when you were a small child, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Steve:

Oh, it was so many different things, right? Throughout the ages. I, I remember at school, primary school, I don't know, six years old or something, teachers going around with that question. What do you want to be when you're older? What do you want to be? And I came up with the most boring answer. That could possibly be imagined, I said, a banker.

Megan:

That is a really interesting choice for a six year old.

Steve:

Yeah. And the teacher's like, why? Money. I want to be rich. And then the teacher cleverly points out, well, you know, you're just counting the money when you're a banker. That money isn't all yours. Yeah, right from a very young age, I suppose, growing up in that time of, you know, Yeah.

Megan:

A

Steve:

bit of job AJ was all about money, money, money, money, and not to be too stereotypical with my Chinese parents, money is a big thing as well, it's a strange thing in Chinese culture. Money's a big thing, but so is also, The more mystical kind of things as well. There's this duopoly going on with these culture. So both of those things probably yeah money. But, it changed throughout the years as well. I don't think I ever knew at that age. I eventually went into marketing after university and things like that. But I have this distinct memories of taking labels off certain things. And making my own labels and putting them back on, I don't know why, or whatever it was, it could be just so really boring and inane, like a bit of glue or something. I've taken the label off and then make a new one and things like that. Not that I knew I wanted to go into like marketing or something at that point, but I guess something was there. Yeah., And then, when you're growing up, you want to be a footballer and stuff because no one becomes one because they're not good enough. University days. I got into DJing, played in some clubs and things like that, was like at the university radio stations, of course, yeah, I want to be a DJ, things like that.

Megan:

So what did you end up taking in university?

Steve:

I took business and management studies. Because A, it came easiest to me, all the subjects and B, because yeah, I probably thought, if I'm going to go to university for ACLS, this is probably going to be the most practical, and I'm probably going to get a decent, grade at it, and so on and, going back to that childhood thing of money, money, money, and you think career, it's all about money, trying to earn a decent living and stuff like that. Yeah.

Megan:

So you were studying business, but doing DJing for the university on this as well. What was your first job after university? Did you pursue DJing or did you go directly into a more business role?

Steve:

I did, I wrote some letters off to some stations and stuff, but I probably didn't pursue it as hard as I could have done

Megan:

and

Steve:

so on. I could have done a bit more if I really wanted to, but I think, in my head, that was like, that would be a nice hobby, but is it really a job? And at that age, you're thinking, yeah, my parents would never think that's a good idea either. I better not, I better find a real job. So moved back to my parents after university and I worked for this really small marketing agency. You did all sorts, really, they did the usual creative and stuff like that, but they also had this kind of factory, almost in the bottom downstairs. So they're actually doing their own mail outs, direct mail and stuff like that. Oh, wow. Facilities and stuff. So it was factory plus office kind of thing, which was nice because, it meant at that age, I wasn't just stuck sat in front of a desk or whatever for hours. But yeah, I kind of always, not always, sorry when I went to university or even just a little bit before I knew that I wanted to do business and management, I knew that marketing was the avenue that I wanted to go down because it balanced that kind of approach. Creativeness, plus the logical side and things like that. If you were

Megan:

creating your own labels,

Steve:

yeah yeah, I didn't know at the time, but yeah, there was obviously something there, right? But, yeah, I remember, for instance, like at university, in the first year you take all the different elements of citizen. Like in the finance subjects. I did incredibly well, like ridiculously, like 90 odd percent in there, but I still didn't, I still didn't pursue that because I thought it's going to be boring and blah, blah, blah. I'm just going to be stuck in front of spreadsheets, not talking to anyone. And then, yeah, I still pursued the marketing part, taking all those modules and stuff like that. So, strange. I do confess to making strange decisions probably throughout my career that may have been that may have worked out well, who knows?

Megan:

I think it's a good balance of what you're good at, but what's also interesting. And if you can find opportunities to marry those things together, which maybe was marketing I think that's quite logical, actually.

Steve:

Yeah, I mean, it's important, isn't it? Do what you kind of enjoy. Yeah. I'm not saying that everyone enjoys their job and are lucky enough to find a job that they enjoy, but as much as they can, they should try and pursue that.

Megan:

Yeah, I agree. So how long were you on agency side? Did you work for multiple companies on the agency side of the marketing equation?

Steve:

Yeah. I probably, I don't know, about 10 years worth of experience on agencies maybe a little bit more. So yeah, roughly, so I started that one, this local small agency, and then I After a couple, a year or two, I moved to High Wycombe, about, an hour away from London. And that was another agency who were very specialized in marketing insight and database marketing and all that kind of stuff. So very analytical and things like that. Was there for about two years and so on. So that, that was really nice and set me up because I that's kind of my base and foundation really of marketing rather than coming from a creative side understanding what everything is before going on to the creative. And then I guess because it was. only an hour away from London, I would pop in quite often, and then the bright lights of London stuck me in. So I came to agencies over here. And then yeah, managed to work on some really nice brands. And at that age in your So mid 20s agency lifestyle is great, you kind of work and play hard and everything. And yeah, at that age as well, I think from a work perspective, agencies offer you a lot of variety in terms of lots of different types of projects, lots of different brands to

Megan:

work on. Different industries.

Steve:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then the last agency I worked at was a really nice, small independent agency called Illustrated London News, who traditionally, They published a newspaper called the illustrative London news, like from, Victorian ages and things like that. So you see a lot of their stuff in museums around London and British Museum and things like that. So they came from a publishing background. And they work with loads of luxury brands So I was like really lucky enough to work with some really nice luxury brands high end cars and jewelers and, all these six star resorts so that was quite nice, going. To Italy and stuff and visit some nice car factories and things like that. So that was really nice. I've worked myself up there. That was, I was there for about four years or something, which was my longest at an agency. Normally it's two years and then I jumped and so on. But I was there for about four years. Worked myself up to heading up the digital team there. And yeah, it was nice because we had some ups and downs when I was there. And when I took over that team, we were a group of three people. We had really sitting down because, the things that happen at agencies and so on. By the time I left, it grew to about ten people. So that was nice. And then, yeah, one day I thought, is this it? And I just quit.

Megan:

Wow. I just you didn't have something else. You didn't have a plan. You just

Steve:

Nope, nope. It wasn't like a long thing either. It was probably on my mind for what, two weeks a month or something. Oh wow. So I've got to this level, right? Which is what I've always wanted. Yeah. And then, after that, maybe you dream of running a whole agency or owning your own agency or something like that. But essentially I thought, okay, I own this department now. Yeah, running this department, getting new business in and stuff like that. It's all working well. But I, there, there was something. Yeah I don't. I feel like I got the amount of, I don't know, joy, I don't think that's the right word, but whatever it was to keep me going and motivated.

Megan:

There's something about getting to the point where, not to say there aren't new things to learn, but they're incremental at that point. So you lose that sense of challenge, maybe.

Steve:

Yeah, I think also when it. Everyone I think realizes as they progress up the ladder, they actually do less Doing the job and the work that they do, and it's more about, okay 80 percent of my day is actually meetings

Megan:

or

Steve:

managing people or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, maybe that was part of it as well. And I did a. I did a little experiment, which I didn't tell anyone about, and it's failed spectacularly. And I thought I'm spending so much time on calls or managing people in meetings and this and that, I'm not doing like the job.

Megan:

Yeah.

Steve:

They're all adults, these people, they can get along with it. I'm going to go for one week without trying to do any management. I'm going to let you guys do it. And yeah, things just went awry very quickly. I thought, Oh, weird. So, yeah, so it's obviously a needed.

Megan:

Yeah. So it's important, but maybe it wasn't for you.

Steve:

Yeah. I mean, it is. Nice though, I think, in that you, you help people develop and so on and you build a team and you see relationships growing within the team and outside and so on as well. Yeah, it's not to say I didn't like that aspect. It's just that I wish there was maybe a bit more of a balance. The doing and the managing. I think, yeah, I probably don't want to. pinpoint that as we, I just felt, yeah, the overall feeling was, oh, is this it? When you

Megan:

extrapolated forward for the rest of your life, do you want to be doing the same thing for forever?

Steve:

Yeah, yeah. I just thought there's got to be more than this, in terms of payback, and I'm not just talking about money or, overall feeling of how you feel like working there. And again I really enjoyed that place. Actually, it was a nice job and people were really nice and the organization was really nice. But yeah, just something. It was like, and then I just quit I didn't even tell my girlfriend at that time. She's my wife now. So it didn't have too much of an effect. So yeah, I just came in. Yeah, I quit. And she was like yeah, no plan, no nothing, whatever. And I, at that point, I didn't really know what to do. What to do. How did you

Megan:

figure out what to do next?

Steve:

I guess I was kind of thinking about what do I actually really enjoy doing? You know, I was looking for. Okay, if I could. have that as a job, then perhaps, work life balance, et cetera, would be better and so on. So yeah I still, after I quit that I continued to do some like freelance Work online for some people whilst I was figuring out what to do. And then I arrived at, hey, I like food. I want to cook. I want to do something with my hands for a change and I want to actually make something rather than just. move information around or make something which isn't really tangible or whatever. So that's what I thought I'd do. Applied for some places and I got invited to, come into a restaurant to Do a little shift for a couple of hours. That's their version of an interview. Right. Which I really like, actually, because there's no getting around.

Megan:

Yeah,

Steve:

it's practical. Actually do practical stuff. There's no, yeah, I can do this. I can do that. And, actually, we don't know if you can or not. And then, yeah, that's how it started. So yeah, that was that kitchen there in Chelsea and I worked there for about six months or something like that. Again, really nice. And then I saw on Twitter, one of my favorite restaurants, which is quite local to me, unfortunately no longer. But they said they were looking for someone and actually, yeah, what happened? Yeah. No my, my wife, she saw it on Twitter whilst we were in the restaurant

Megan:

that

Steve:

we were eating at. And she's like, oh, why don't you go talk to her? And I go, no, that's a bit. Bit much, isn't it? But then eventually I did. And then, they showed me around the place and said, Hey, come in for a shift again and blah, blah, blah. So yeah a really nice restaurant, did all sorts of different foods. I was able to learn about lots of different cuisines and stuff like that. And yeah it's hard work. Money is not great, but it's, A really satisfying job, it's a bit like sport as well, in a way. Yeah, the adrenaline's going. When you've done well, you know you've done well because it's there and it was an open kitchen as well. Yeah, so

Megan:

that's extra pressure.

Steve:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely the beginning, like just super nervous Yeah. And there are really bad shifts where no matter what you do or how well you've prepared or whatever, whether it's too busy or too many tables coming in at the same time you're just in the weeds for eight hours and you can't get out of it. You just battle through. And the good thing is actually the end of the shift, you clean down, you wipe down, you start again the next shift and it's. Totally from scratch again,

Megan:

you

Steve:

know, and there's not really much office politics kind of thing either, which is another nice, there's good camaraderie. There's lots of stuff that goes on that. HR in a corporate environment would not accept at all. But it's all done in mostly good humor and stuff like that. Where I was working, there wasn't the stereotypical loud chef shouting and swearing and throwing pans at everyone. So maybe I was lucky. So yeah, like a really fulfilling job. But I stopped. Because the hours were long.

Megan:

Yeah, and they're like, that's your whole evening and night.

Steve:

Yeah, which wasn't so bad for me. But yeah, you work a lot of weekends and evenings and things like that, but then you get to experience London during the day on a weekday when no one's around. That's true, which is pretty amazing. It's really, and there's all these random things going on which you just don't see normally because you're rushing around or whatever. But basically my girlfriend, she was still had a nine to five job and we were hardly ever seeing each other. So that was a big reason why I thought, okay maybe this isn't such a good idea, grand scheme of things, but it was like a really, really nice job.

Megan:

I have a question. Cause I don't really know anything about the restaurant industry. So I really like the practical interview style, which is literally come in for part of a shift and work. But how did you know you had the skills? did you take any courses, certificates, or you were just a good home cook and liked it and thought, I'm just going to try it.

Steve:

Yeah, I didn't take any courses. A lot of people do take courses, go through the proper route and so on. So I didn't do that. So I knew that I wouldn't. Go into, say, for example, like a classic French restaurant. Mixteland style kind of thing where you need to know all the techniques, right? So my home cooking was okay. Yeah, I guess I kind of Back myself a little bit. I knew that obviously I wasn't great, in professional level. Yeah. I could go in at the bottom and then work myself up. So I thought, if I went in and it was fine, then okay, I'm, I can try this. If I went in and they're like, you're so far off even the base level that we need then I could be, okay, fine. I won't pursue this. Mm-Hmm. I guess was my idea because as well. I could have taken a course. I was considering it. But they do take a while and I spoke to my dad about it because he used to work in this industry as well. And I thought, well, what do you think? And he was like, absolutely don't take this career move at all because it's long hours. But he said, and he said, look there's probably no point doing a course. Just go in and see if you can do it.

Megan:

So more like a practical experiment, just go in and see what happens.

Steve:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, half, half the battle is. Do you like eating and can you taste things? And if you can do that, then you can kind of work out how to do things. The rest. Yeah.

Megan:

So then you decided though it actually didn't ultimately work, like lifestyle with you and your girlfriend and just the long hours. And so what happened

Steve:

after that? She was going through a thing with her job as well. She'd been working at this TV company for about nine years and she had enough as well. So I said, hey, why don't we go travel? And it's a bit convincing because she likes stability and got changed. So even though we both love traveling and stuff, you know, Yeah,

Megan:

it's different to go on a nice holiday versus going traveling.

Steve:

Yeah. There was a big worry of all the practicers. What are we going to do with our flat? How are we going to get jobs when we come back? And blah, blah, blah. But my point was like, look, you're unhappy in your job now. You don't know what you're going to do exactly next anyway. So we might as well use this. opportunity while we can. Yeah. We don't have too much tying us down and so on. So yeah, and then we did that. And we wanted to travel for a while. And we wanted to work in places as well. So that one, it wouldn't feel like. Just a holiday and just backpacking around and things like that and then two also because so then we could travel for longer.

Megan:

Yeah

Steve:

And then so so the first job we got was Working a winter ski season in Austria. So where I could use my skills as a chef We found this nice, small little boutique y chalet, I would cook, and she would essentially look after the guests, keep the place nice and tidy, make the beds, and all that kind of stuff. So we, and it was quite nice actually. I mean, we'd make the breakfasts, they'd go off skiing. So then we'd have all that time to go off skiing or snowboarding or whatever as well. And come back and make them dinner and then that's pretty much it. Yeah, we got an accommodation and food and stuff like that. So that was a really nice experience as well. I went there as a very beginner snowboarder, she hadn't snowboarded at all, and by the end of the season, of course, because we had so much time there, we could do it pretty well and navigate ourselves around the mountains. Yeah, and then after that, we continued on our travel going through like India and lots of Southeast Asia and we had. Lined up a teaching English as a foreign language job in China, in northern China, a place called Harbin, which is right on the border of Russia. And it's famous for its sort of ice sculpture festivals and stuff like that. It reaches up to 30 degrees, minus 40 degrees in the winter, they're like super cold. So we would teach at this private English school. It, and then also we taught at some kindergartens as well. And yeah, another kind of more formal primary school. So there are about three or four different sites that we would teach at. But yeah, super fun, super fun, Again, I said, cheffing was one of the most fulfilling jobs that I've had. This one was probably one of the most fun jobs I've had. Essentially I'm just playing with kids, teaching them a little bit of English. But yeah, super fun job. And it's not something that I ever thought I would do. Do because I'm not the most super outgoing of people. But I think once you get put into that position, you almost put on a character.

Megan:

Yeah,

Steve:

you feed off the energy that the

Megan:

Well, and kids are never afraid to say what's on their mind or ask questions. Yeah, they can draw you out.

Steve:

Exactly. Exactly. I did have one super, almost scary moment though. I mentioned that I taught at a couple of different sites and different schools So when I started, they were small classes, it might be a one to one or it might be a small class of six people and things like that. And communication in China is not always the best, so they're like, oh go and teach at this school. It's just the same as what you do there. So, I have my lesson plan for about six kids. I walk in and it's a classroom of like 40 kids what am I, and they're just staring at me. I don't know what level of English they have or this, like this but, you know, it all works out in the end.

Megan:

You and your girlfriend did this kind of nomad lifestyle before, like, working, traveling before that was even really a thing. Now it seems like, based on social media everyone wants to do that.

Steve:

So

Megan:

How long did you guys do that for?

Steve:

How long ago was it? I want to say we probably, where did we start? It was probably about eight years ago that we started it, and we were away, all in all, for about more than two years. So yeah we spent about five months in Austria for the first job, traveled around a bit, and then China, I think was about, I forget, six to nine months or something like that.

Megan:

Mm hmm.

Steve:

And then, yeah, after China, we went across to Central America before coming back. But yeah with a bit of planning, it can definitely be done. Obviously we weren't living in five star hotels and things like that all the time. But we actually came back with more money than we left with. Oh, wow. The jobs and so on. And I think, it wasn't our goal to go and try and find ourselves or whatever or anything grand like that. It was just a case of let's just go and have an experience outside of the UK. But it does open up your eyes. In terms of the value of things, whether it's monetary value or value of time or things like that, you know, that goes on. So,

Megan:

yeah, it definitely changes your perspective on things. Yeah,

Steve:

yeah, for sure.

Megan:

After you both had spent 2 years traveling around, and then you came home what did you end up doing next? How did you decide to take that route?

Steve:

I think, given that we weren't like 25 anymore, at this point we're on 30. It's okay, I need to make some money for all sorts of reasons, as people know. And so I'm like, okay how am I going to make the most amount of money? That's going to be with marketing again. Yeah, okay, fine. And then this time I thought, maybe I'll go client side. And see how that works. And just looking around and I found this role and it was a 12 month contract role. I thought, oh, perfect. So I don't feel like I'm tied in. Etc. And it's like that. So again,

Megan:

Almost like another experiment of like, it's just a year. See how it goes.

Steve:

Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so started this nice company. People realize job was good. And then, yeah, things are fine, and they said, oh, do you want to become permanent? And I was like, yeah, I don't have anything lined up yet. I probably should have done or at least explore different options, but I guess I was comfortable there. And so then I thought, yeah, sure, why not? And all in all, I stayed there for about five years. Thanks. So that, that was probably my longest stint at one place. And just as a side note as well, my girlfriend she totally changed careers as well. She wanted to go into HR. Oh, wow. So she did that. And she's still with that same company and she's doing a bit of HR and internal comms, which she really loves as well. So it's all worked out for her. So

Megan:

that little break was. Definitely helpful.

Steve:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. For both of us. So yeah, I was at this corporate company for about five years. And yeah, it's I think at that stage of my career, I think is definitely better for me anyway, than agencies.

Megan:

Bit more normal hours and less like entertaining clients. And

Steve:

yeah, definitely that. And I think, in terms of the actual business and work itself, you start to think a bit more long term and strategically rather than just on a project or campaign basis, which was really nice. But, also having worked on the agency side, it was really useful because knowing how they work, et cetera I often saw, let's say, clients who weren't always the friendliest. So I tried my hardest to not be that way and work with them. So, so that was useful. So, yeah, 5 years there. And I probably stayed there a little bit too long, if I'm honest. We could blame COVID, like everyone does, but ultimately it's down to me. I think the last year and a half or so, for whatever reason, I was getting a bit down with the job. And in fact, I think in the last three months or so, it got to the stage where You know, actual work wise, we were doing well and, performing and numbers are going up and things like that.

Megan:

Yeah.

Steve:

But myself in the last three months, I didn't even want to wake up and go to work. Oh wow. And, I was working from home as well as working from the office and stuff like that. And now my wife. She could hear in my voice, like on calls and stuff, and she's like, what's wrong with you? And I'm going, well, nothing wrong, blah, blah, blah. She could hear in my voice.

Megan:

Yeah.

Steve:

And then it came to one day, she must have overheard another call that I was on or something, and she came in and she was like, I think you should quit. I might have mentioned actually something before to her I think obviously I've spoken to her about, not liking the channel anymore as well. So yeah, she was like, just quit. It's not doing you any good. And so then I did. I quit again. But this time, this time she knew about it beforehand. So, so yeah.

Megan:

It sounds like she helped you make that decision this time, too.

Steve:

Yeah. I think because of I've done it previously, I thought I probably should stick this out. I don't. Is this just me being a serial quitter kind of thing? I kept telling myself, right, it's almost Christmas or it's almost, you know, summer where I'm going to take a holiday and blah, blah, blah. And that could be better. I think it wasn't each time. It just snowballed and snowballed. And I don't want to speak bad of the company or the organization either, because ultimately it's me who felt that and there are still other people who work there and are doing fine, enjoying their jobs. But sometimes it's just

Megan:

like Rennet's course in your particular journey.

Steve:

Yeah, exactly. It's just the whole thing. So there's no blame attached, to the company or whatever. So yeah, that was that. I quit again. And with no job lined up, no

Megan:

plan

Steve:

again. Yeah so then I was just being a bit of a tourist around London enjoying life for a month or two, not knowing what the hell I was going to do. I was kind of looking out for jobs on LinkedIn and stuff like that, marketing jobs. I think, when I was looking, I was like is this just going to be the same or blah, blah, blah. So I wasn't really going for just half heartedly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so on. So I didn't really know what I was going to do. And then I saw this free training course to become a fitness instructor. And I was kind of about it. And then my wife was, yeah, why don't you just do it? Because you're not doing anything else at the moment. Yeah, fair point. And because also for the past, To a couple of years as well, I've been the trading people, a fitness course sort of fitness session. Yeah, for a couple of years. So essentially what happened was it was a proper organized class outdoor and then the trainer left and. They couldn't find a replacement trainer, but there was still a group of us and then we would often take turns leading the session and so on. And then it ended up with me just leading most of the sessions. And then I think, yeah so yeah, that was another nice thing that I enjoyed. My wife was like, Oh your classes are really good. Like they're better than the classes that we go to the gym to. And I'm just thinking you that's, you're just saying that because you're my wife with these tinted glasses. Right. And then some other friends came along, including one who's like a yoga and Pilates teacher. And she also said the same things. I was like, okay, maybe then. So all that came to my mind again, when I saw the advert, I said, I'm sure. But then my wife convinced me, so I went ahead and did it. As I was doing it, the course, I think it was for about four to six weeks The further it went on, the more I thought, yeah, this is really interesting. This is really nice. And I could possibly do that. Yeah, after I finished the course started applying for fitness instructor jobs and started getting more training to become a personal trainer. trainer as well. So here I am now doing personal training and fitness instruction, like different classes and different gyms and things like that.

Megan:

So career number five, maybe?

Steve:

I don't know. Yeah, it's all kind of interrelated, maybe. Way, but yeah, I suppose so. Yeah, that's

Megan:

cool. When you look back, so you mentioned they're all interrelated when you look back. What do you think are those kind of threads that connect everything? I

Steve:

think. genuinely for me to be fulfilled as a job. It's more so about, am I giving something to society? Am I adding something of value? Am I helping people or whatever? So Yes, we all have to make money, right? Yeah,

Megan:

of course. You have to

Steve:

make money to live, company has to make money so they can put more money in research and development and make their products and services better and so on and survive. But I think ultimately it all has to be for some benefit, right? Obviously, with personal training and fitness instruction, we're helping people to become fitter, healthier, and, have better well being and so on. With the cooking if you create a nice dish, you see the satisfaction on people's faces and they have their moment of joy teaching kids. You know, you're educating them, but they're also having fun. Even in marketing, I went in, it sounds naive, but I went in with the fact of, there are lots of great products and services out there that people might not know about.

Megan:

I

Steve:

want to tell People about these great things, which will help with their daily lives. And that was my thought process of going into the marketing.

Megan:

Cool. I like that. I think you seem very clear on your value set and what's important to you. Which is really powerful because it allows you to evaluate each thing against that and know There's some benefit enjoyment for you as well if there's If you're able to also be giving benefit enjoyment to others

Steve:

Yeah, yeah, you know if we are It's that old thing that we're stuck in a in a job for eight hours a day or more so if we are just churning through something like a robot. Yeah,

Megan:

it's a long day.

Steve:

And I know that, not, we're not all so lucky to find that. And, and sometimes we just get stuck. Yeah, I don't think it's super important because there, there are so many different careers and so many different jobs out there that sometimes we haven't thought about. And sometimes. We're obviously very concerned about taking time off from work, et cetera, and missing that pay packet, but sometimes it's that time off where you wander around and you find these random things or connections or you meet these random people and go, Oh yeah, I need this or that. I

Megan:

think that's one of the things I think is so interesting and amazing about your journey is just your willingness to explore and take that time, whether it's quitting without a plan, or actually, we're going to travel and we're going to work so that we can do both of those things while we're figuring out the next step, just your willingness to take a chance and explore. To your point, a lot of times people feel stuck and it's that exploration and trying things that helps you figure out what the next step is. You don't, I mean, I don't know even all the jobs and industries that exist in the world. And how do you figure that out if you don't take some time to step out of your day to day?

Steve:

I think all of us, we, we don't think. that we are, but we are pretty amazing in terms of how we can adapt

Megan:

and basically

Steve:

just survive the day, all these things going on around us, but we manage it somehow. Right. So my, my thinking is that I've only got however many years on this earth. So I might as well try different things. Sometimes it'll work out. Sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't work out, all right, I discard it. At least I've learned not to do that. Just try the

Megan:

next thing.

Steve:

And if you're lucky enough to find something first time that you really enjoy, then lucky you. But I think we are scared of change, but ultimately, because we are so good at adapting, We can always get back on and do something and the next wage, which will, pay the rent or whatever. Yeah.

Megan:

I really agree with that. And honestly, that's one of the reasons I was inspired to even do this podcast of everyone's journey is so. Unique, and I would love to inspire people with people's real journeys of taking those chances and learning to explore and not taking every decision along the way. Like, this is a life or death career or make or break level decision. Cause to your point, sometimes you're going to fail when you try something, but also we're very adaptable. And so if it doesn't work out. We'll be okay.

Steve:

Exactly. Often, the more we think about it, the worse it gets in our head. It stops us from doing things. I think that's the thing that I wish I did like do things quicker. Once you consider the pros and cons and ask people about it. You know, you've got enough information now go do it. It doesn't matter whether you're going to be perfect, you're not going to be perfect because we only improve by doing it and practicing it right or we find out. You can read as many books as you like, but. At

Megan:

some point you have to get out and do something.

Steve:

Yeah, and I think that stops, well, it stopped me when I was younger as well. It's like, well, I'm not going to be as good as that person or as that person. And I can only imagine what it's like now with social media and everything. Oh, here's this celebrity or this multi billionaire. And you think, oh, they've all done that. But there's space for everyone, I think.

Megan:

that kind of leads to my next question, and maybe you've already answered it, but is there a piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self?

Steve:

Yeah, I think do things quicker so you can and not get stuck. Do things, you know, after you've made all your considerations, just try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. You can move on. You can either go back or you can try a different route. Or whatever. And I think, yes, listen to people, because obviously everyone's got experiences and so on, but ultimately, it's your own voice and opinion which matters the most. Don't always be led, even if you're like, they're your parents or your teacher or, the Prime Minister or whatever, this is what you should do. Well, okay. But what is it that you yourself wants to do rather than being told what you should do? I guess.

Megan:

I think that's great. Great advice. And definitely a piece of advice that I wish I had heard younger. I have many times in my career probably held on too long so yeah, so I think that's great advice. Thanks.

Steve:

A career is a very important thing, and so I think that's why people are quite risk averse and don't listen to themselves enough and they always listen to what I should do by reading, what this person has said or that person said. It's all good advice, but, I think use that rather than follow it 100%.

Megan:

Yeah, that makes sense. So, what's next? What's your vision or hope for the future? Yeah.

Steve:

Yeah, I don't have grand plans to take over the world with gyms in every town or, an army of personal trainers running around or I'm not that person anymore. I think, it's generally just to be happy with my, my lovely wife, we have a nice life. You know, we're okay, and we don't have to worry too much about things when we get old. I actually remember when my dad and I were having some sort of argument. I don't remember what it was. It was probably to do with my lack of studying when I was about 17 or 18. And I remember that, so what do you want to be when you grow up then? Yeah, and I was being moody and sulky. I just want to be happy. And he was like, happy? We all want to be happy. That's not why I'm asking you. How are you going to make money? But then, about 15 years later, he says to me you know, he's had a few glasses of wine. He goes, yeah, I remember that conversation. And at this point, he's retired now.

Megan:

Yeah.

Steve:

And he says, I get what you mean now. That's one of the few times where he's gone, yeah, okay, you were right. So yeah, I still stand by it. It's not about making huge amounts of money or whatever. It's just genuinely being, as happy as we can be, whatever that is.

Megan:

Yeah, that's amazing. My view is just your whole approach will allow for that. You really seem to make room for that and make decisions based on that. So I think that's really amazing and something I'm gonna take away from this conversation and think about. My own life and like, where I want to go next and how how to incorporate that in and that exploration and experimentation too. So thank you. I think I learned a lot and I'm, I know other people are going to be inspired by your journey too.

Steve:

Thanks for allowing me to jibber jabber and chat for an hour. Yeah I say I'm not a very outgoing person, but apparently if I'm given the space, I can talk nonstop, which is a bit unlike me. Yeah. I'm an introvert as well. So

Megan:

like one on one, sometimes you can get into a good story.

Steve:

Awesome. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you again. I hope everything goes well with you, podcast and everything. Thank you.

Megan:

Awesome. Thanks, Steve.

Steve:

Right. Cheers. Bye. Cheers.

Bye. Something I talk about quite a bit is the need to explore and experiment throughout your life and career. And Steve's journey is the embodiment of that. It's actually something that is really hard to do for myself included. Is there a safety in the known even when it's not working for you? My biggest takeaways from my discussion with Steve were, first of all, it's okay to walk away when something is no longer working for you. This is something Steve has done throughout his career. Sometimes very decisively and others with the support and a bit of a nudge from his wife. Second, the power of taking a break. Whenever he did decide to step away from something, he didn't immediately jump into the next thing. He took the time to reflect and explore. And both he and his wife were able to make career pivots, partly because they took a step off the career treadmill to work and travel around the world. And third experimentation. Steve has been willing to experiment and try new things, which has created new opportunities and allowed him to build the kind of life you want. Whether it was jumping into the world of cooking with little experience, gaining new perspectives on things like money and time through traveling the world. Or a building or something he was already doing in his personal life. Like he did with his fitness journey. Lastly, I think Steve's advice to his younger self. To do things quicker is really important and is a lesson that I hope to carry forward from this discussion into my own life. Do your research talk to people, but don't get stuck here in the analysis. And remember at the end of the day, your opinion and gut is what matters most. So just try it and if it doesn't work, move on and go back or try something else, but you don't have to stay in a job or a company or an industry that is no longer working for you. A book that really speaks to the concept of experimenting as you figure out what you would like from a role or a career is Working Identity Unconventional Strategies for Reinventing Your Career by Herminia Ibarra. I definitely recommend you check it out. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.