Audrey Vincent: Fashion, Ecommerce and Entrepreneur

Season 1 Episode 7: Audrey shares her amazing journey from France to England and how she navigated her journey from fashion to ecommerce to launching a business all while juggling her diverse interests.

To learn more about Audrey's wonderful new business, check out their website: https://www.tinkaandco.com/

Book Recommendation: Think Again by Adam Grant https://adamgrant.net/book/think-again/

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the unexpected career podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I'm Megan Dunford. And as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I am passionate about reducing the pressure on young people around going to university. What to take in school and on getting that right. First job. My guest today is Audrey Vincent, whose journey in fashion and e commerce has led her to starting her own business with her mother in law, Tinka Co. London, where artisan craftsmanship meets canine comfort.

Megan: 0:43

Thank you very much for doing this. I was, super excited that you said yes. I think your journey is really interesting. And also, I remember we had a conversation months ago now, and you were talking about the school system in France and how that Brings different constraints and challenges. And I think that's just a really interesting perspective of depending on where you grew up or your family, you might have different things you need to consider as you make decisions along the journey. It's obviously not the whole journey, but it helps shape, some of the decisions you would've made, or, other people make, we deal with what's in front of us. So thank you for joining. Thank you for having me. I always like to start with what did you want to be when you grew up? That's when we first start thinking about this idea of work or career or what have you. So what did you want to be when you were little? Audrey? Yes it's,

Audrey: 1:44

it's, It was hard for me to pinpoint an exact job. And just to get a bit of help, I asked my parents and it was a, it was also a funny answer because they said they couldn't answer. They said you didn't have a set one. They remember the one for my brother and for my sister was very specific, but they don't remember mine. And then they told me it changed all the time. And I thought, yeah, that's why it changed all the time. I think at one point I wanted to be, I wanted to do things that related to what I liked, which was dancing music. So I wanted to be at one point a dancer slash singer slash painter. It was like these three things together. And my mom, I remember told me, Audrey, being a painter is not a job. I'm like, really? She's no. I'm like, okay. So I would just switch and I would want to be, at one point I wanted to be an architect and it's one of the things that. stayed, I think, until I went to apply to go to architecture school, university essentially in France, because it's a specific path. And I was rejected and and then I thought, okay I'm going to do something else. I was interested in interior design. But overall I wanted to do something creative when I think about it now. It was something creative. I think if I was if I was born 20 years later, I would honestly be an TikToker because I spend a lot of time dancing in my room every evening. I had dance classes as well, but dancing in my room for about an hour. And I think that's how I got a lot of energy out. Just pull the curtains, I would have a very fancy reflection and I would just dance and break dance and try to practice what I had seen on the equivalent in France of MTV because I didn't have cable, I didn't have MTV, but we had a channel with music about two hours a day. I've always been, as a child, very curious, so for example, I remember I saw a dice, and I thought this was a cool form, and I remember trying to figure out how do you make it, and I think I asked my stepdad, told me well, you can try and figure it out. So I I drew on paper. I tried to make a reconstitution of the, what a dice look like, and it didn't, then I cut it and it didn't work. And then I tried again, I put it on the dice and try it again. Eventually I managed to get the right shape, but then I realized the edges didn't stick together. So I needed to take into consideration the fact that I needed to do little like lapels on the side so that I could attach them to the edges, things like this. Everything I've done, I think has always been like this. Everything I approach has always been like this. I try to figure it out. So it's never been set in stone. I've always wanted to do different things.

Megan: 4:18

Mm-hmm

Audrey: 4:19

And and there's a funny thing about this. I like change. I just wanted to create something I think there was an element of Wanting to be liked, because I was going to say famous, but the reality is that as a child I did a lot of activity, I was dancing, I did some swimming, but in terms of stage things, I did dancing and synchronized swimming, and actually, I'm not sure I liked it that much, being on stage and being like it's really stressful. Once you're on there, you have the adrenaline kicking in. So then you just go and do it. And then once it's done, you're proud you did it because it was frightening. But actually I realized that it wasn't necessarily for me and I had once a chat with my mom who said I don't think, being a pop star is for you, like being a star is for you. And I thought, why, what do you mean? And she said, you need to be very solid to do this kind of job, like you need to be very strong. And I don't think it's for you. And I was really offended. I thought, what do you mean? What do you mean? And in retrospect, I'm like, I care too much what people think. I don't think I got it. Whatever path I've gone down and whatever it is that I wanted to do, I've had my parents support or they've always said yeah, maybe not and I was like, okay, fine. I'll find something else. And that's how I've approached things. And that's why I don't really feel like I've failed at many things because I just will try. And if it didn't work, I would change. It's not ideal because sometimes I would try and it wouldn't work and I wouldn't persevere and my parents would be, no, you need to, and I learned that through activities.'cause I've done a lot as a child. And my parents, my mom, I think got annoyed with me not sticking to things. She's if you do this, you're gonna have to stick to it, and you're not doing another one until you finish with that one, or you really have to close it. I can't keep on adding things. We're not made of money, so you can't just keep on adding new things, and, because also, they have, they had to drive me to all these activities, yeah. In short, yeah really creative, not set in stone. And I think it's still apparent today in terms of what I do.

Megan: 6:25

I think it's really interesting because there is a sort of sense of you don't like to necessarily be constrained, but you have really solid support, so when you do pursue something, you have support, but they'll also be honest of maybe this isn't the right thing, or stick with it a little bit longer. I think that's a It's a gift and not everyone has it. So I think that's amazing. Your story about creating the dice I can't really see how that connects to wanting to be an architect. That's what they do, draw it out and then you build a model and then but you said you didn't get into architecture school. What did you do instead?

Audrey: 7:01

I ended up working in fashion, my mother wanted me to understand what things cost, So I had a budget for my clothes or whatever I wanted for school or things like this. From the age of 14, I think I had it twice a year and it was to go back to school. So I had one in the summer to pick what I wanted. And I had one in January or so, if there was enough, if my parent had enough money, then I would have one then. Then the thing is I started to work for it. So I did, I don't know if people would see that as normal, but I think that was the way my parents found to get me to do chores at home. I would do chores. There were a lot of things I would do clean the car or just a lot of things around the house. And then I would get either a pocket money or I would get that allowance, essentially For my, for, in the summer. And My mom didn't want me to go in the shop with her and be like, Oh, I want this, this, this, this, and this. So she wanted me to think about what I wanted for a while and then decide based on the budget. So once I had this allowance, I started to look at a magazine that's called La Redoute in France. It's a distance selling, now it's an e com. Like Next in the UK, it used to be a catalog. And now it's an e com, which is probably the best structure you can have in a business to turn something into an e commerce is that you already have the infrastructure, you already have the storage facilities, et cetera. I digress. The La Redoute was my Bible. The catalogue would come there would be one for the summer and one for the winter, and when the summer one would arrive in the spring, I would start looking at all the style and all the product. And that's where I realized that Levi's jeans or all these jeans were already like 60 percent of my budget. So I'm like, Ooh, if I want Levi's jeans, cause I wanted some I'm going to have to be smart because it's it's really expensive, but I really want them. And then I realized that when you buy, you create, you can get loyalty points and you can get vouchers. And I realized that their business model was to anytime you buy, they give you a bigger voucher. So I would buy something small, maybe a t shirt, and then I would get a 20 percent off my next order. Then I would buy another buy a jumper and they'll get 30 percent off my next order. So I would calculate things like this and schedule what I was going to buy in order to, when it gets to the 40 percent off, I could buy the Levi's jeans. And my mum thought I was really savvy with this because I managed to get good deals, I was really into fashion, I really liked being dressed up. I remember being sent out of school once because I was wearing an inappropriate top I had made myself. I think I must have been 11 and I had made a crop top and I think my parents didn't see it. I wore a cardigan and as soon as I got to school, I took off the cardigan and the teacher said, Audrey, get out of it, get dressed, go get dressed. I was expelled from the class. But I've always wanted to express myself through my outfits and That was one way in my teens, early teens, to do that with my allowance. I picked the clothes I wanted. Also, I picked clothes that were a bit more durable. And. When architecture didn't work out, I started to look at other things and I saw there was a company that invested a lot, in retrospect I can't see it, they invested a lot in advertising in these fairs, in these educational fairs, because their stand was shiny, was, It was bright. It was big. They had videos of catwalks. They had brochures with different types of papers, different level of opacity. So you could see through some of it. I was like, this was great. I loved it. It was called Esmod and it's a fashion school in France, but it's to be, it was to be a designer. And at home I practice and I got a sewing machine, I think for Christmas and I try to make some garments and I got frustrated when things ended up being wonky and I realized, oh, you need to follow a pattern when you make clothes. I don't like that because then somebody else made it. So they made it before me. I don't like it. So I thought, I can't be a designer. I don't like it, but I like clothes. And my mom said maybe you can study business because she said you're quite good with numbers, figuring out how to get the best deal, et cetera. And I thought, yeah, that's not, it's not a bad idea. So I looked at that school at SMUD and they actually had a business Branch is called ISM. So that's international. I don't even remember what it's called. Gosh, it was like 15 years ago. But yeah, it's called ISM. I S E M. And it was business and they would teach you about administration essentially. But specifically for the fashion industry. So you had managing court classes, English classes, Italian, because you need to know how to speak Italian. You had history of fashion classes. But also finance, just like a business school, but specifically for the fashion industry. And we had loads of projects where we had to create brands and create product, create websites, things like this. And Yeah, I applied I had to do a, an interview process and a test, and then I got in. And that's how I went into fashion business. That's where it started. It was in Paris. It was a BA, three year course. And yeah that's how I got into into doing fashion business. The story of how I got to London is a bit longer, because when I was in high school, I, at the end of high school, my parent gifted me a laptop for my 18th birthday and with my first paycheck from working as a cashier, I was one of my first jobs. I paid for internet. And with that, I discovered I could speak to people on the other side of the planet. That was amazing. And this is where I met my now husband. We met on MySpace. We were friends. Sharing the music paste. Yeah, I know. It's really old. It really takes you back. We were friends for like nearly a year and he came to visit me in France. I came to, went to visit him in London and then we were in a long distance relationship for four years. And Whilst I was in university, and that's how I got to London after I finished university, I decided to do a master's in London. Yeah, that's something that he found for me, actually, because I was a bit lost. I didn't know what to do. My course was finished. It was actually hard to find a job in the fashion industry in business in France. Because in France it's a little bit pigeonholed. That's my view. Some might not agree. A lot of people have spoke to do. If you have studied a topic, you're going to work in that industry. If you want to work in a different industry, you have to start all over again, you have to do the whole BA thing again, there's no transitional thing, you have to, the transition only exists after 10 years of work experience, you can have an equivalence that translates your experience into something else, but you still have to do a course. But right, fresh out of uni, you studied fashion business, you're going to do fashion business, you're not going to do just business. It was, there was no way I was going to get a job at Bonduelle, which is a company that makes canteen food or in anything else than fashion. So I was a bit stuck in that sense because I was actually competing with other graduates who came from the likes of, I don't know, if you think about the UK, it would be a side business school from Oxford or the Ivy league of business schools in France. And they decided they like, a lot of people decided they like fashion. They wanted to work in, in Dior. They wanted to work in, the LVMH group and all these brands. And they, were preferred profiles, simply because you hire, a lot of people hire people that had a similar profile to them. They thought, Oh yeah, this school taught me loads. These people will know what they're talking about in their view. And therefore I had no chance in these. It was very, it was a very limited pool of opportunities. And I had done internships. I had done an internship in Chloe, but it was just for two months. And I had done an internship in sales in Kenzo because I was interested in luxury. But when it came down to finding a job, it was really hard. I had a part time job at Chanel at the weekend. I was really proud of that because I. applied for three years, I got rejected twice, but every time it was a bit further down the process. And I got the job the last time simply because two other, two other classmates were working at Chanel and one of them was kind enough to give me the the the training guide that they receive. So that I looked, I made a photocopy of it. I looked at it and I learned everything there was to know about Chanel and how they work and what their language. So then I nailed the third interview and I got the job. But if it wasn't for the help of somebody who was already inside, I wouldn't have got it. And yeah, And that was it. After that I really struggled to find a job or a long term internship. My boyfriend at the time in London told me, oh, There is this semester in, in London in Central Saint Martins. It sounds like it's right up your street, you should apply. And I'm like, what is it? Like Central Saint Martins, they would never take me. At one point, you know I like to change, at one point in the middle of my BA, I applied to go to University of the Arts London. It's a group that holds Central Saint Martins, but also London School of Fashion. I wanted to apply there and transfer and go there because my boyfriend was over there and I was attracted by London and I went there, I prepared a book, I applied, there were so many people, they were so talented, they had done already fashion courses and they knew how to follow a pattern, for example. Yeah. And I realized, gosh, I applied, I brought a massive book full of glitter, it was ridiculous, it was a giant book I had made, there was a mix of things in there. There was some pen some Martha had done. There was some glitter. When you open it, it went everywhere. Yes, I thought it was great. I still have it to this day. But it wasn't very, it wasn't what they were looking for. So I didn't get in. And I knew coming from a fashion school in Paris that Saint Trocep Martins in London was la mecca of

Megan: 16:38

fashion. It's, yeah, it's a famous

Audrey: 16:42

So I thought, there's no way, but he sent me a link to the class and the course and the curriculum and I'm like, Oh my God, this is great. This is for weird people like me. And I read it and it was something like, do you stand a challenge to status quo? Do you think that things should be different? And he went on to went on a tangent of nonsense, absolute nonsense when I think about it, but it made so much sense to me. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to apply. I'm going to write a letter. And I didn't hold back. I'm like, the word is a mess. None of it makes any sense. Think about this, think about that, et cetera. And this was in any other context, this would be. If this was an application, or if this was to be seen by anybody else, it would be career suicide what I wrote. So that's it. Got a call the next day from the course director who's like, we want people like you. This is just what we want. And I was a bit scared because I had missed the deadline and I felt they're not going to take me. But he called, he said, no, the course starting next week. But yeah, we, you have a place, you have a space, come in. And I'm like, oh gosh, like I didn't expect that. I haven't told my parents, I haven't packed anything. Where am I going to leave? I don't know. And they said you need to do an English test. So I got all of this sorted. Eventually I just told my parents one week later I I got everything sorted. I moved to London. I stayed at Conrad's mum's. And then I got in and I started, I think two weeks after everybody else, but I fit right in.

Megan: 18:03

I think that's so fascinating, there's just a secret course that was designed for you. In a way we all have our people, so to speak. So amazing to have found, to have found that.

Audrey: 18:18

Yes, it was called Master of Applied Imagination in the Creative Industries, and it was all about creating new solutions to everyday problems. So it might seem very conceptual. But it was the complete opposite. The cohort was a mix of, they were architects, they were designers or people who came from economics, finance, completely different profiles. And the more varied, the more interesting it was because every two weeks we would be paired in groups of eight with different people and we would be given A problem to solve. So the campaign was always different. Sometime it was improving an experience. Sometime it was bringing more more customers or more workers. The first project I did was called Wake Up and Smell the Noise. It was so, we came up with the most random thing. It was like a candy made out of sugar that was supposed to mirror a glass. And when you would bite into it, the noise would break you out of your routine. So make you feel like, Oh, something's broken like glass, but then the smell inside. So the aroma inside was supposed to bring you into thinking about the countryside, so we, in principle, what we wanted to do was to inject some scents from the countryside that are pleasant into something that was crystal, like crystal that would just break and be just like a new kind of experience. In reality, what we made was a sticky ball with essential oil that were not edible in it. But it was the idea that mattered. And it was really fun. It made us think about how imagination and creativity can come together. The fact that creativity is just putting two things or three or more that already exist together. Whereas imagination is more when it comes down to innovation is envisioning something completely differently. And. Yeah, I loved it. It was great because I learned about failure properly in that course, and I learned that it didn't matter that I didn't study regular business. It didn't matter that I didn't study. I don't know, for example, now I'll do something to do with dog that I'm not a vet. I could still work in this industry if I. I wanted to surround myself with people who know what they're doing, or who know how to help me get there. And that was the whole point of being in cohorts of, a cohort of people with different backgrounds, because we learned from each other. I learned from them in the street I didn't know anything about. And I think that set me up for for success to some extent because I wasn't afraid of failure.

Megan: 20:52

I made such an important lesson and it's so hard to learn because failure is scary. So most people avoid it. So to be Diving into it as your course is amazing, but it also speaks to the power of that diversity people had all these different undergrad experience and came with different degrees and skill sets. And so that's what allowed for the creativity and innovation. And also solving practical real world problems, even if your solution maybe didn't work, the thinking through that just sounds so cool. It was fun.

Audrey: 21:31

It was hard because this was six months of this and then six months of doing your end of year thesis master thesis and for the master, they said, I think they somewhat approached it like a PhD that never ends and you only have six months to do it because you had to find your own question and you had to keep on refining the question every time you answered it because there's always another question.

Megan: 21:55

That's like the five whys on steroids,

Audrey: 21:58

It never ends. we had to journal and document every step, the hurdles, the good, the bad, etc. And you were graded on this. I remember some of the students from, where were they from? I think East Asia And I remember they struggled a little bit with that at the beginning, at the end. They did great. But they struggle with the concept of not having rules to follow because there was no rules.

Megan: 22:21

So

Audrey: 22:22

you had to make your own rules and culturally it doesn't work for everybody. I give them more credit for getting an excellent mark at the end than, for example, me or other people, because it was completely alien to not have, based on the education they had before they were explaining, it's just, they were getting really annoyed that there were no rules. But yeah, I finished the course with a distinction. I was really proud because English was not even my first language. And I just, just up and left, from France and went there and did this course at CSM. So I think whatever happened after that, up and down, I thought, if I can do this, I can do other things, even when things didn't really go my way or didn't really work.

Megan: 23:06

That's amazing.

Audrey: 23:07

My parents and my brother came down to London, to take part in my graduation ceremony in the summer, and on the picture, I remember my, My, I think my brother, my sister said, I think I've never seen you look happier than this and I looked at the picture, I'm like, yeah, that's true. It was just pure joy. I was just so proud of myself. After I graduated, I still struggled to find a job in London. It's not like London where, the world of opportunities. I could do anything, which also with me is a problem because when I can do anything, I want to do everything I can't choose. But in the end, what I ended up doing was, it was quite humbling, is I ended up cleaning houses. Oh, wow. This is a funny story because I did that maybe for two months in part time, but with with with someone else, but this is a funny story because Now, I'm actually doing volunteer work, with the person who owned one of the houses I was cleaning. what I like is that person They don't think because you're cleaning the house, you shouldn't be an example for kids or whatever like this. So it's fascinating how it's gone, not a full circle, but it's like a loop, where that person is not calling me to be like, Oh, can you come and talk to the student of this school about all the stuff you, you've been doing? Cause I've had a career since then. And this is a contact I made then, for example. Yeah.

Megan: 24:30

I think that's really interesting because I've just been having a lot of conversations where people talk about their network and networking a lot. And those are the kind of things people don't think of as part of their network. But that's a great example of actually. Your network does work in weird ways and sometimes people you meet in a non, this was a business context but not in your career journey necessarily, but it's still this connection and part of your network and brought you this opportunity to volunteer and speak to kids. So that's, I'm just, that's super fascinating.

Audrey: 25:08

It is, it works in weird ways.

Megan: 25:10

The universe is mysterious.

Audrey: 25:12

Yeah, it's fascinating where help can come from the people we meet. It's it's interesting. So that's why it's hard to maintain this relationship as well. Sometimes people come out of the blue 10 years later and you're like, Yeah, why not? Before we'd be like, oh, I don't know who that person is anymore. Now I'm like, why not? After the cleaning job didn't last for very long because I got a job at Zara, in the retail. It was the summer of the Olympics in London, 2012. And, it was on Oxford Circus. And it was a circus. During the Olympic it was really busy. For I think two or three months I worked there. And I was working crazy hours. When I think about the things that we do when we're in our late teens or early twenties, I'm like people are really taking advantage. Really, they know you need the money, and I wouldn't do it today, but I was working, I would leave the store, it was 11pm, I thought that's fine because the underground station is two meters away, I can just jump in and go home, but now I'm like, oh my gosh, 9am, I'm done, can I get home please, I don't want to be outside yeah, I was working, the shop was closing at 10, we had to set up for the cleaning and set up for the next day, and then I would I would go home, but I remember in the three months I worked there, I learned a few things, What I would say is, be aware of customers making a fuss for no reason, because they might be trying to distract you. And then the most interesting experience that happened is my course director from my master came to buy a blazer. And it was on the only day I wasn't a cashier. So I was a cashier during the entire time in that store. And needed somebody downstairs in the main floor one day. And I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know what I don't know. Just go. I was dreading anyone asking me anything because I didn't know where anything was. And then my course director came to me and he asked me, do you have this blazer? It was a blazer. pink, bright pink blazer. He had a very eccentric style. So it's very on brand. Do you have this in another side? And then he looked up and I'm like, hi. He's like, hi. He's like, oh, how are you? And I felt so small. I felt like. Oh, maybe he's gonna be disappointed that I'm not doing great things. I got a distinction in his course and I've done all these things and and I'm here looking for Blazer for him and not at all. He was just like, Oh, how are you? I hope you're well, et cetera. And I'm like, yeah, I'm working here. It's that's good. That's good. Et cetera. And I found him his Blazer, he bought it, he left. This was for me a bit of a shift in paradigm and it reminded me of something I learned in that course, is that the biggest gatekeeper you'll ever meet, whatever you want to go work at, you want to go meet, I don't know, the prime minister, you want to go do this and that, the gatekeeper is never the one you think. It's never the secretary. It's never the receptionist. The gatekeeper is always you. And that made me realize that I was gatekeeping in the sense that I was judging myself so much that I thought that he would be disappointed when he couldn't care less. He just thought, Oh, you know, this is nice to see Audrey. And and because I saw him then I took this opportunity and I was applying, then I thought, Oh, let me just apply for more jobs. And I applied for jobs. And when I finally got one, I had no reference and I called him and I asked, would you be my reference for this? And he said, yeah, of course. And he wrote me a glorious reference. And then this is how I got my first gig as an e comm manager in. In a small brand based in Notting Hill, in fashion, and I was the manager. So I was the boss, but I was also a team of one. So it was just me doing it, but that's how it started and that's how I got into e commerce.

Megan: 28:55

That's amazing. I love how you said we're our biggest gatekeeper and another example of a, your network, but be like, just ask. You asked him to be a reference. And a lot of the time people will say, yes, people want to help people so So tell me about your journey and e commerce and where are you today? Like, how did that all evolve?

Audrey: 29:23

I think the I skipped a few steps with the job from Zara going to the Ecom job because I did a couple of internships in between. I managed to find some paid internships. It was so random. I got a, I think it was the University of London. That had a whole office dedicated to helping students find jobs, and the website was open to the public. I went on there and I found some internship and I thought, do you need to be an alumni? Do you need to be from that university? And I applied and they said, no, it's fine, you just need to be a graduate, and I'm like, okay, cool, sweet. And I got a an internship My job in the first three weeks of this internship was running around in the street with diamonds and gold in my backpack. I'm sure they have much more sophisticated ways of doing this now, but yeah, that was one of my jobs. Yeah. And I also did some illustration. So one thing that's been real recurrent, I think this whole time is I've always had things on the side, whatever my job, my internship, whatever it is I was doing, I've always been doing other things. And I was doing illustration for a French newspaper. I didn't really care about being paid. I just like seeing my illustration in the newspaper. I've always been doing art. I would set up website. I. I coming out of uni actually, what I tried to do was I had a, an ethical lifestyle website. I did an internship at the Ethico Fashion Firm. I mean there's so many things, I forget now Ethico Fashion Firm that actually form my approach to fashion and sustainability. I did that I think for three months. And I think I'm going in every direction, but yeah, I did a diamond thing. I didn't, and what do you think about it? It's diamond on one side and ethical on the other side. How does this align? I don't know. I didn't think much of it at the time when I was doing it, but it's the ethical fashion one. That was very interesting to me because I helped as an intern as much as you can help. Businesses advertise themselves, sustainable and ethical fashion businesses advertise themselves because they were too busy working on their product and doing good that they didn't really know how to do the rest. So this is what the ethical fashion fund was doing seminar for them and doing consultancies. They work with very small business but they also work with the like of H& M. And I really enjoyed that, but it was an internship and at one point I had to go away and to go and for another internship take to take that spot. But what that left me with was some high expectation of fashion brands, and then in every brand I've worked for after that, I was somewhat disappointed because it was never as good as it could be. And a lot of brands are very honest about this. They say, we're not perfect, but we're doing this X, Y, Z. Some of it for some brand is brandwashing Some of it is genuine because the people in the brand who work in this department are genuinely interested and genuinely want to do some good, but quite often you have other priorities when it comes down to finance. I've learned as I went up the ranks in the business just keeping the business open, avoiding people being fired. A lot of this take precedent quite often on. on advancement in sustainability. I would think that you could do both at the same time, and quite often you can, but it's still the focus away from profitability and things like this, which is what the business want you to focus on. So this is where I became a little bit disillusioned with how, the fashion industry, or at least the big guys worked. I had great experiences, If I move away from the internships, so I got my first job in, as a manager, where I was doing everything. So the benefit of this is I got to see everything from operation to going to event, to learn about new things in the field, meeting with companies, wanting to sell us stuff that I didn't know, or I didn't need services, but then I would learn about the services available. So it was just, It was just me and I learned a lot, but then I would say the ethics and sustainability element of it caught up with me and I could no longer do that job. I got another job and I went to, I went up, I got a raise. I got a job in a menswear company, learned a lot, had a great boss. That's where I started to get into trading specifically, so having a calendar, but also looking at what we're going to sell, when, what email is going out, what stock do we have, working with merchandiser, buyers, et cetera. And then I moved on to a job at a lingerie, luxury lingerie business Rigby Petter. One of my best experiences in my career, because it was, Mostly a team of, it was mostly managed by women. There were a few men in the office, but we freely talked about women's problems. We freely talked about whether you have a fitting experience, what it means for women in a changing room to to get fitted, especially if they've had maybe a mastectomy or just not feeling confident being, undressed next to somebody else, for various reasons. And this was very humbling and I learned a lot from that. I learned a lot of things about people but also people in the office were amazing generous with their time with the way they would be open to talk to you or they would see, they would get used to seeing the way you are every day and realize when something wasn't right and they would ask you and they would genuinely care. I loved working in that company. It was owned by a Belgian group, which meant that I also experienced going abroad for work. That was also new to me and I liked it. I also like seeing a different culture. I saw how the Belgian team was working. Every meeting seemed like they were having an argument, but no, it was just the way they were communicating. They were fine just afterwards. That was hilarious. We, in working with the Belgian team, we ended up working with the team in the Netherlands. If I thought the meeting were stressful in Belgium, the one in the Netherlands, it was something else. So blunt, and this is where you can, this is where I realized that I had softened because I used to be the one described as blunt or assertive when I first came to London. Yeah. And now I was shocked. I was, I just thought, wow whoa, whoa, they're not holding back. So I got used to the British culture, specifically London, so in England. But to just not, to being a bit more tame in what I want, when I express myself And to be kind and just to see other people's view maybe before expressing mine as if it's the only one that matters. And yeah, it was a great, it was a great experience. And that led me to go to Marks Spencer because they needed somebody to manage their, the second biggest department they had in the business, which was lingerie. It's the number one Women's underwear retailer in the UK. And I own my

Megan: 36:22

tights from Marks and Spencer. So

Audrey: 36:25

it's at the time they had, I think they had over 33 percent of market share in real life. So in the stores and then they had 25, something like this online. And the goal was to grow online. That I was at that business when COVID hit. So that helped with the, with online sales and growing the business, I worked a lot on nightwear and it's just, these are specifics, but I helped grow that business as well. And this is what led this working in this such a big company led me to the last job I had before what I'm doing now, which is working at ASOS. But if I can take one thing away from M& S is that. It, once again, it was really humbling to see that there are very different type of people in every business. I remember being shocked when I saw all my colleagues doing the same job as me had very different approaches. Some were very ambitious. Very ambitious and others were just chilled. It's five. They're already out the door. They don't really care about promotion They've been in the business for 20 years. They've got other things to do and I'm like I was I felt like I want to Shake them, you know, like, do something and then I realized that not everybody is like this. I didn't realize it on my own. I had, because during COVID, COVID was tough. I had therapy at the time when I was talking about it with my therapist and she said, not everybody is driven and no, this way you have some people talk about a, A, people, B, et cetera, C, this kind of thing. And you it's very reductive, but there's other ways to talk about it, but the point is not everybody is the same, not everybody has the same aspiration, but also people have different priorities. And some people prioritize family work is just a mean to an end. You don't work, you work to live. And that was something that I learned in that company because there's so many different people, but also I was a employee representative. And I started it during COVID boy, that was tough. That was hard because that was a point of communication between the employees and then the management and I would translate them down and just hearing about In privacy about people's when we're going through really open my eyes to this is what's going on in people's life like this is something as some things are tough. Some of these people have their partners are key workers and or they need to have a child care and they don't have it. What do they do? Consultation, some people being made redundant. Huh. Which could be the point of contact, or you could talk, they could talk to you, but it doesn't mean you can't do anything. Yeah. So it feels very, you feel very powerless, and that was, I think, in terms of human connections, that was a great experience. I, yeah I really enjoyed this this appearance. I think I, I talk about all my job as more of what I learned from people more than what I learned from the job. I learned a lot from the job, that goes without saying, but it's the people I met that changed my paradigms, I would say. Mm hmm. So what are you doing now? So now I spent one year working at ASOS, which was this was funny because I applied at ASOS A decade before when I was trying to find my first job in London and I did an interview there. I remember specifically what the toilet looked like because I spent a lot of time in there trying to compose myself. In the end, I didn't get the job slash internship, but then ten years later here I was the head of global trading at ASOS. Managing three markets, France, cause I'm French Spain and Italy. And I learned a lot from that job too at a bigger scale also in terms of responsibility, cause that was my first job where I had a team who had a team, et cetera. I like to think I was a kind boss, maybe a bit too kind. I think the struggle when you're in this position is you have to absorb, you have to try and translate, we're supposed to translate what the executives wanted into digestible message for a team, but also that means you have to filter. I don't know if I'm an expert already, but you have to filter some of the things out. You have to translate the urgency, but without, creating anxiety for your team. And I feel like all of this kind of builds up because you know everything that's going on. You can't say everything you have to continue driving the team. I'm a millennial, so I'm like, that boss was just very understanding people, what are they doing this weekend? What are they wearing? It's just it was, I had a great team. I really enjoyed working with my team, but I think it was getting To be too much for me.

Megan: 41:09

It can be quite exhausting when you're holding space for all of that.

Audrey: 41:15

Especially after MNS because I was, I felt like I was holding space as well. Because of the experience during COVID. I think this is a great start place to start. It's a great place to end your career as well. It's a great place to grow. Some people do the entire career there, but because I went there during lockdown and because of the extracurricular activity I did, it was too much and I needed change, but at the same time, the change that I got when I got more responsibility was really hard because whilst holding space for others, I still needed to hold space for myself to recover It was hard. And I had also some personal stuff going on at the same time for the entire time I worked there. And It wasn't for me, not at that time. So I stepped away from ASOS. I think I took maybe three months to decompress, to not feel guilty, to not feel just what am I going to do with my career? And that was at the time when we were chief, and it was a fantastic place to hold space for you. Great bunch of executive women who have it in them because they've been doing it for so long to serve and essentially serving other women and helping where they can. And I learned a lot from that network. I learned about intentionality. about doing things, not just, people not going around London, carrying diamonds just because why not? But more what am I going to do next? What's my plan? For what reason? Does that make sense for me? Am I going to be happy? is it going to be fun? One of the things I've learned is that for me is if a job stopped being fun, I'm I can't do it anymore. That's my barometer for all those. It's all the things I don't care how much it's paid. It needs to be fun and fun in a sense that for me doing analytics is fun. So it's different for different people. But when it stopped being fun I don't want to do it anymore. And this is what I've learned from talking to all these women's and learning from their experience. And it was at the perfect time because I was a little bit lost. And that led me to start a business with my mother in law family business. It's my mother in law used to have a very small teacup Yorkshire. Very small dog and she couldn't, it was years ago, she couldn't find harnesses that were suitable for her dog. She couldn't find beds that were supportive enough, because they were small beds, but they had no feeling in them. If you put your hand on it, you could feel the floor, it just wasn't, just, it might have been pretty, but it wasn't really useful. You wouldn't want to sleep in it. And She started to try to replicate what she found on the high street, but make it better by the feeling putting it herself inside the products. She's a seamstress by training. Oh, cool. and she's from Poland. So back in Poland, she was a seamstress. And she used to make designs that she sold in and she would go to shops and sell it to them, and she would really enjoy, see it worn by people on the street. But when she came to the uk, she stopped doing this. She was doing it more as a hobby or when people would bring her clothes that they found in TK Max five size too small, or five size too big. And they would ask her for a miracle. She would make a miracle happen. And I saw what she was making. I'm like, it's very nice. I don't, I'm not sure about the Dalmatian print, or the zebra print, but I think it's a very nice product and then she started to make other things and she was making leashes and things like this and these are very nice. She said, yeah, I got lots of compliments in the park. Her lady who was a dog trainer said she would she would pay me if I would make her 15 or 20. I'm like, yeah, you should do it. This is great. So she did that. And then we started to talk as a family about the fact that maybe she should have her own brand and she said oh me never like I don't know anything about this and and we're like oh we'll help you. At the beginning it was my sister in law and my husband and with their job they didn't really have time to help her. It just stagnated and she was just waiting to do it and it just never really happened. And when I was working at ASOS, I'm like, I'm going to help you when I have some free time, because when during lockdown with all the things I had to do, I still found the time to start another business next to my job. And I started, Face covering business. We're making face masks because we couldn't find any anywhere and we, I said, Oh Ella, do you think you could make me a face mask? Cause I'm really, I was paranoid. I was one of those, stay away from me. And I really wanted a face mask. So I asked if she could make me one and she made one. I'm like, this is very nice. And then she made some with all the fabrics she had in the flat. And I'm like, Ella, you could sell these cause everybody wants them. And she's like, what? No, nobody's going to buy this. I'm like, Okay let's see. And then I'm like, if you use nice fabric, you could sell these. And then I said, let's go find some fabrics in Liberty, the remnants this small, but big enough to make face masks. Yeah. We found her some vivid fabric. She started to make face masks, we started to improve the design, adding metal bits, you could clip it, et cetera. And then okay, I'm going to set up a. a store for it. And I did, it was quite quick, online, and then I started to advertise, and we turned a profit really quickly. It didn't last very long because it was at the very beginning when nobody could find anything, and then there was some rules put in place for advertisers that it had to be medical grade, etc. But weirdly for Boots, that wasn't the case. Boots got to advertise, even though their product were not medical grade, but we couldn't, it was just a kind of double standards and it was fine. We stopped there, but the point is we had started officially a business. I had registered it. I was taking care of all the e comm. She was taking care of the shipping and taking, making the photography. I would edit the pictures and then she would ship it. I had sorted out a packaging. We had, done some design and stuff. And this is the first thing we did together. And then when I moved on to ASOS, I'm like, if I have time, I'll help you with a dog bed and I never had the time. When, this is a very long story, but when, I'm not very good at making short stories. When I left ASOS, I'm like, I should be able to help you now, I just need to take a bit of time off. And then after three months of, winding down from the intensity of the job. I'm like, okay, let's do this. In September, we started to work on this. And now a year and a few months later, we have just launched, I think four weeks ago, we just soft launch the brand. We launched a website at the same time as doing a pop up in John Lewis in Chelmsford. So in Essex it's called Tinka Co. London. Tinka was the name of her Tick Up Yorkshire. Ah, so cute. She's passed in Nenmeh, it was years ago, because it's been years. She's got two new dogs, and they are models, and they're muses, on the website. And yeah. We currently make dog beds and accessories. We're looking at all the product, but first we looking at making bigger dog beds, which require more support. Cause we take that seriously. My sister in law is now a vet. So she's helped us design the products so that they're suitable for dogs. And we're getting her advice on how to make something supportive for a bigger dog, because bigger dogs don't just need foam, they may need other type of support, like memory foam or a mix. So we're looking at some things that are a bit innovative, we're looking at packs that are innovative, like things that are different. But what set us apart from the rest is that everything is handmade in London. We do everything on demand and that's where my ethical fashion background and aspiration kick in. I don't want to have any weight. Of course I would never think because I'm so I would say exigent on that point. I would never think that it's perfect enough. I'm like, we need a different filler. We need different fabric, we need to do this and this, and we need to give X percent to charity. So it's, we're adding things, progressively. For example, we offer repair, no other bed company offers repairs because they can't be asked. But for me, it's, you need to be able to take back anything you put out there. If you put a product out there, you should be able to take it back as a business and repurpose it for something else with it or whatever, at least ensure that it comes with longevity, durability. But yeah, I'm really excited about this new venture. It's different to work with a product. I have to learn a lot of things about dogs, because I don't have a dog. I've lived with dogs in the same household but I've never had the responsibility of owning dogs. Or being a dog parent myself. So I have a lot to learn about magazine, a lot about it, about behavior and what's good and not. She has the experience of having dogs and also being a seamstress, she brings those skills. I bring all the commercial trading, making websites. I'm really resourceful. I can do a lot of things myself. And then we have help and support from other people that we know, for example, my sister in law who is a vet. But what I would say is I really, there's some indicators for me, like the fact we were selected to do a pop up at John Lewis. We had not even launched, we had not sold a single product and they still thought it's a great product for our audience and for our customers. we talk with other service providers, to see what we can do and I really want to do things differently. it's not just beds, it's not just product, lifestyle, it goes with, it's all around wellness, because I think what I will end with is what I've learned during my 15 years, 17 years in London, gosh, I feel old what I've learned during all this time in London and working is. I've got to put myself first. I don't have children yet, just don't. So I would say I have the luxury of being able to do that, but I wasn't, I was putting work first and and wellness is very important for me now. Being, I try not to be stressed. I think I've been, it was a given. I worked in trading, online trading. There's not much of a difference between online trading at fashion retailer and online trading in the city. Yeah. You are just trading clothes instead of trading stocks, but the, everything changes every day. You have to predict things that you can't predict really high stress. And yeah. And I learned a lot from it. It was useful. But now I want a life that's a little bit more relaxed and this business is suitable for this, for me. You're,

Megan: 51:50

you're in control of What happens and how fast it grows and who you partner with and All of that, and like you were saying it's such a coming together of skill sets and backgrounds, your mother in law's own career journey in Poland of creating designs and selling things to businesses, her experience with having a dog and not finding the right things, and of course, her skills as a seamstress, and then your whole e commerce, fashion business degree your masters, it's all coming together in this one thing, which is, yeah, it's so cool. And I've been on your Instagram page and first of all, they look beautiful, but you can tell even in the photos the quality. I can't wait to see them and touch them and get my cat something. He loves to sleep on the floor in the winter because I have under floor heating. So I think a little bed that I could put on the floor would be nicer than just sleeping directly

Audrey: 52:46

on the floor. That's brilliant because we are, we actually got a lot of feedback. This is what I loved about during the event in Chelmsford, John Lewis, is we got a lot of feedback of customers being interested in beds for larger dogs, for cats, or even for rabbits. It's gave us some food for thought. We are looking at whether or not the beds that we currently have are suitable, for example, for cats, or if we need to change something, it needs to be a little bit sturdier. And we will have a pop up in London in the spring. It's part hot off the press. We will have a pop up in London. Yeah every day is is exciting in the sense that it's also it's also a nerve wracking half of the time. But this is for your own benefit. It's for your own business. And and then I get to decide how it affects me, I would say. I'll step away when I want to step away. I haven't been in a place where I needed to really run away from this. It's just the preparation of a, of the pop up was a bit much. Like you would expect, it feels like preparing a wedding. Launch of the website at the same time. And you were mentioning social media. It's a whole job on its own. It can just get a little bit overwhelming when you know everything that needs to be done when you can't do it all. Because I can. Then there's a networks that kick in and this is what I've learned from being part of Chief is network is very important. And when Chief in the UK closed, I joined all the network, women's network, founder network, and it's great because it's, you always have people you can go to and ask, does anybody know this, or you just, jump into the conversation. You can see people talking about. Who are they using for deliveries? Who are they using for packaging? Looking for, I'm putting together a gift bag. Does anybody have any products they would like to pop in for my event? X, Y, Z, and I'm like, this is brilliant. And a lot of these are free. Most of the networks I'm part of are free. Cause working alone or most of the time I'm alone or I go to work in a studio with my mother in law. I need to have the stuff that I used to have when I was working in an office, the buzz, or at least learn from what's happening out there. Yeah, what are people doing? What's the conversation? And these networks are really useful for this.

Megan: 55:00

Yeah, good outside perspective and people to bounce ideas off or ask questions. So when you look back, if you could go back in time, what's a piece of advice you would give yourself when you were just starting university or when you first graduated or even, when you were in high school or younger, like what's one piece of advice you wish you could go back in time and give yourself?

Audrey: 55:24

I think this one, and I'm going to say that with, because out of context, it might sound. Maybe not pretentious, but there's one thing I didn't mention is that I struggled at school before uni because I was, in French you say dissipé, that means all over the place because I was a mess. And for other reasons but in France, if you don't have good grades, the school can decide to hold you back

Megan: 55:54

a year.

Audrey: 55:55

It's not your parents decision. They can't contest it. You still be held back a year. You still have to re do the year, the whole year. And I was held back in, in high school twice. I did five years instead of three. I was held back in in the first year of high school because they thought I didn't get the basics. And then I was held back in the last year of high school because I didn't pass. If you don't pass, you're your baccalaureate, which is like A level. You can go off in the world and try and have a career, but you won't go into university if you don't have your A level, so the only option you have is to redo it. And that can hit your confidence. Because. For sure. I thought it was gifted somehow it was in the back of my mind and being held back two years made me feel like I must be stupid. The biggest comeback from that was to go just off like this to Central Saint Martins and get a distinction in a master, in a language that wasn't my own that really put me back in perspective and no, I can do this and actually I can do more. And this is why I wanted need to put this in context. What I would say to a younger me is, do you believe that you are gifted? I'm not good at everything. Yeah. I'm not always good at reading cues. Of what people are trying to say. And sometimes I can come out as either blunt still or really not reading the room. But I do think that I should tell myself I'm gifted. Still be humble, But just keep on going for it. Like I've always just gone for things. I'm like why not? You're sure I'm gonna play Chanel? I don't care if I'm playing Chanel. the only at the time black person working there, which I was, or the only black student in this fashion university, which I was at least for the first year I've often been the only one in the room and I thought, you know what, if there's gonna be one, it's gonna be me. And but sometimes there's always a self doubt that come in, even to this day, where I just go all the way back and do 180 if you prefer. And I'm like, no, you can't do this, good enough, et cetera. And this is where I would try and keep on telling myself, you can do this. You have done so much more and I've had some health issues in the process. This is why I'm taking it easy now. And I'm like, I've done all of this. Why is feeling like this? There's a lot of things I can do. Yeah. So it's you can do this and sure. Yeah. You're gifted. Just don't go shouting it from the rooftops.

Megan: 58:24

I love that. And there's something you said of if there's only going to be one, it's going to be me. That's really powerful, and why shouldn't it be you?

Audrey: 58:33

And what I've learned after that was, it's going to be me, but I'm not going to be the only one. Once I'm in, there's going to be others. Then you're

Megan: 58:40

going to bring people up with you. That's really powerful. And great advice, and applicable to today. Not just our younger selves, but to ourselves today, it's a good reminder. Thank you, Audrey. I loved hearing your story and there's such interesting connections that I don't know if it was like this for you in the thinking back of your journey before we chatted. But sometimes you don't see them tell you think back, but there is a clear through line that I see. And it's just really interesting. What you're doing now and how all these kind of steps in your journey were stepping stones to that. And I'm really excited to see what happens with Tinker and Co. Because I think it looks. Amazing and, is a product people need for their pets, but also your whole view on sustainability is so important. I'm really excited to watch where it goes and where you go and where you take it. And thank you for taking the time on your Sunday to share your journey and your story. I really appreciate it.

Audrey: 59:52

Oh, thanks Megan. It was lovely speaking with you. it can be helpful to reflect back on all the things you've done or you've gone through to carry on. And I think that speaking to you about this today also helped me. realize that the creativity element has always been there. So I definitely have a rebellious nature. And and yeah, I'm just thinking, I'm going to be thinking for the rest of the day about this. So thank you. Thank you very much.

1:00:21

I really loved hearing Audrey's career journey, full of twists and turns, but also connections, And you can really see how she got to where she is today. There are three things that I really took away from Audrey's journey. Openness, confidence, and creativity. Audrey demonstrated an openness to new experiences from the many activities she tried as a child to the variety of jobs and internships she took as she was finding her way into her career. But even more than that, her journey is littered with examples of an openness to To learn from the people around her and a willingness to shift her perspective when needed. Audrey mentioned how her masters taught her to not be afraid of failure. And I was really inspired by how Audrey seems to have an inner core of confidence. That's not to say it was never tested. But when reminders were placed in her path, she believed them and took that renewed confidence to propel forward. Throughout Audrey's story are examples of creativity. This is clearly a core part of her makeup that she maintains through art and now brings into her business. But it's also shown in her stories of problem solving, whether it was figuring out how to afford those Levi's jeans, Or solving real world problems in her masters, and then throughout her career. And I suspect it's also why she usually has so many projects on the go at the same time. And there was something really powerful that Audrey said. If there's only going to be one, it's going to be me. But once I'm in there, there's going to be others. Lastly, I'll leave you with a book recommendation that speaks to Audrey's openness to shift perspectives. Check out Think Again by Adam Grant. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.