The Unexpected Career Podcast

Aarti Gurnani: Lawyer, Banker, Sales, CEO

• Megan Dunford • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Season 1 Episode 9: Aarti's journey spans legal, banking, sales to Biotech CEO and she shares how she made those decisions along the way and how she is taking a different approach as she decides what's next.

There were two book recommendations in this episode, check them out here:

The 100 Year Life by Lynda Gratton and Adam J Scott: https://www.100yearlife.com/

Range by David Epstein: https://davidepstein.com/range/

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Webpage: https://theunexpectedcareerpodcast.buzzsprout.com

Welcome to the unexpected career podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I'm Megan Dunford. And as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I am passionate about reducing the pressure on young people around going to university. What to take in school and on getting that right. First job. Today I'm joined by Arthi Gurnani who truly has a winding career as a lawyer, banker, sales leader, and most recently as a CEO of a biotech firm. She is now exploring all the possibilities of what could be next.

Megan:

First of all, welcome and thank you for coming on and being one of the guinea pigs in the first season. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I always like to start right at the beginning. With what did you want to be when you grew up?

Aarti:

So when I was little, there were two things I wanted to be. I wanted to be an astronomer and I wanted to be an architect. So I stuck with A's as, as my name starts with as well. But yeah, those were the two things I liked the idea of something that was. Scientific and techie and something that you crafted something and built it. I didn't think of myself as particularly creative or artistic. So architecture seemed accessible in that way, even though it's creative it's defined and constrained creativity and practical creativity, practical and pragmatic creativity. Absolutely. Although the astronomer part of it was just because I was a huge science fiction buff when I was growing up. And yeah, always had my head in the stars, as my mom would say.

Megan:

Amazing. And definitely related in terms of the scientific component. And so did you end up taking either of those things in school? What did you end up pursuing when it came to education?

Aarti:

So, I didn't. And I think they were lovely fantasies to have, but they never felt real or accessible. A bit of context, I grew up in a very traditional Indian household. We were first generation or zeroth generation, we were immigrants from India to the United States. My parents moved us when I was nine years old, and my parents. were professionals. So my dad was an engineer. He worked for the Indian department of the railways. My mom was a GP in India, retrained to be a pediatrician in the U S and those were the role models I grew up with. And in my family my mom had seven brothers and sisters, most of whom were in the U S as well. And all of them were engineers. I think she was the only medic in the family, but those were the role models. And that was the expectation. So when I got to university, I was pre med EE until my second year when or actually my third year. When I realized that actually I couldn't do another day of organic chemistry. And I remember this moment the professor said something and everybody's multi color ballpoint pens went click. And I just thought, I can't do this. And I wrapped up my notes and I walked out and took a really long walk along campus trying to figure out what I was going to do. Realized that I could only afford to be at university for four years and was going to graduate with a bunch of debt anyway. And so switched my major to medical microbiology because I really did like biology and the biological sciences did that but knew that I couldn't actually. make a living and sustain myself emotionally or financially by going into research, which is where my, my, I always kept getting drawn. And I did what any self respecting person who doesn't know what they want to do next with their life does, and I went to law school. So as a gateway into something else, staying on that professional track, but that's where I ended up going to law school in Silicon Valley of all places.

Megan:

Oh, wow. It's funny, because organic chem is we don't have the same concept of pre med in Canada, but I had a lot of friends who took biology with that as where they thought they were going, and organic chem was always the deciding factor of, Wait, actually, maybe I don't want to do this or I, I'm, I can and I'm going to but it is always seems to be the deciding factor and then law is so interesting because it's such a, on paper, it would probably seem like quite a departure, but it can set you up for so many different things. What happened when you graduated from law school? Did you go to the bar? Did you go in a different direction? And what did you do that?

Aarti:

So you're absolutely right. Law is one of those things that is perfect for anybody who doesn't know what they want to do with their life, because you have the option of following the standard track, or you have the option of taking it and doing something else. The people that I went to law school with, two notable examples, one of them It was a friend of mine who went and became an FBI agent after he was done, and another one went into politics of all things, right? And then there were folks like myself who, again, staying on that professional track and also being quite influenced by the fact that I graduated with well over 100, 000 in debt, which was a lot of money at that time, but in terms of student loans I needed to do something that was going to be paid very well. As I mentioned I was in the San Francisco Bay area at the time. It's when the internet was taking off and I did an internship and then got an offer at a Silicon Valley law firm. And that's where I was introduced to the world of startups and venture capital. I did both company side and venture capital side representation. After a few years, I actually went in house to one of my clients and and yeah, that just entered the world of business and law and finance through that decision and through where I was. I think if I'd gone to law school in Connecticut, which was my other choice I would probably have ended up in a white shoe firm in New York City or clerking for a federal judge. It just so happened that the thing that you did when you graduated from school in Silicon Valley was go work with startup companies and venture capital funds.

Megan:

Yeah, it's funny how some of those, like we don't think about those things usually when we're making those decisions of which school to go to. But when you look back they are pivot points or even sliding doors moments of if I had made this different decision, it would have been potentially a completely different outcome and path.

Aarti:

I was having a conversation with my son who is just about to graduate from university, my older son. And he was asking me if I had any professional regrets or things that I wondered about. And I said to him, I have no professional regrets. The one thing I do wonder about, especially as my career has evolved and we'll get to that, but is what would have happened had I actually stuck it out in that organic class to med school. And I look at that and I don't think of it as, Oh, goodness, I should have done that. I don't know. My life would be so much better. It would just have been different, but not necessarily a good or a bad different, but it's the only decision point or the only kind of, as you talked about it the door, right. Or the choice between two doors where I do sit there and I wonder how things might have been different from a point of curiosity not regret or or anything else.

Megan:

Yeah, it's impossible to know if it would be better or worse it's one of the things that I really actually enjoy about these conversations is the opportunity to look back and think about some of those things. So it's really interesting that your son asked you basically the same question that I'm asking. And yeah, so that's cool. And you've had a journey since then because I know obviously you're in the UK and that's where we met How has that journey gone? How did you end up here? And what were some of the big decisions along the way? And where are you now?

Aarti:

I guess what, two decades in two minutes, so go through the whirlwind tour. So I practiced law at my law firm for a few years, long enough to pay off my debts. So it was a very successful run in my law firm. And as I mentioned, I ended up going in house to one of my clients. And the reason I went in house to them was twofold. One was I, as much as I enjoyed, Representing startup companies and helping them go public and things like that. I was really envious about the other side of the table I wanted to sit on the other side of the table. I didn't want to be the person around the table whose role was To keep my clients out of trouble and to help them and enable them. I want it to be weighing in on business decisions. So, going in house to one of my clients actually helped with that because you did a lot more than just advise as general counsel. You took advice and then you turned it into pragmatic business advice to your colleagues and your peers. So that was one. And then the second thing was I wanted to travel. I wanted to live elsewhere. And this company had was a holding company in the U. S. and had all of its operations in Southeast Asia and Latin America. I look back on it and I think that was joined IWC and see the world for a period of about four years. I traveled about 20 days a month, one week I would be in Peru. The next week I'd be in Georgia, the one in Eastern Europe. And I never knew what time zone I was in, you're in your late twenties and that's the kind of life. It's just a blast. So really enjoyed that. Sadly, that came to an end. But one of the things that that happened during that time was the company raised about 250 million in a combination of equity and debt. So not surprisingly, I got to know a lot of bankers. So when that company ended, and unfortunately, it had to fold because of various of instability was just exposed to emerging markets that were very volatile. And, I knew tons of bankers. And my next role sort of naturally was investment banking. And I went into banking at a time when the public markets were making venture investments. So it was the, around the dot com boom. Again, had an amazing time. Didn't know what I was talking about, but you didn't need to. It was more about understanding business and understanding psychology of people and getting really excited about the new innovations. it was still working with startups. It was still building things or helping people build things did that for a few years until the tech crash. And and that's when life intervened. I was in my early thirties. I had met someone. We wanted to have a family. And when I left the bank, I realized after a period of time that one, I found out I was pregnant, but and things were going to change dramatically. We bought a house. We were settled at that point I was in Connecticut. And I realized that actually I wanted to take a crack at being a parent as opposed to outsourcing, raising my kids. So I decided to take a step back. I couldn't actually step out of the workforce. And somebody said to me at one point look at the commercial world, look at companies. So I went to a large tech company and ended up staying there for 16 years. Which was a long time to stay at any one company, but again, it was one of those where every two years I had a different role. I did that in the U. S. It's what brought me to the U. K. or allowed me to transfer across to the U. K I started as a strategy consultant slash biz dev person. I moved from that into sales. I ran a marketing organization for a period of time. I went into building a consulting services into the professional services side of things. And then most recently there I was running a reasonably large sales operation. And my kids and I grew up At this company, which was fantastic, except that again, all good things do change and don't necessarily come to an end but evolve. And I realized as that empty nester phase was coming closer and closer in time that. I didn't think I wanted to be working for a big tech company with 75, 000 employees being a salesperson again, I wanted to be doing more general management I wanted to be orchestrating I wanted to be more on the business side than just narrow domain that I was it. So after COVID, I took a generous redundancy package and embarked on the next phase of my career which involved actually really taking some time out. I went back to school for a year went to a business school and got a master's degree in strategy and leadership. I Realized through that process that I wanted to get back into something biology or biotech related. The last role I was chief exec of a spin out of Cambridge university. That was a biotech company. And really shifted My orientation completely. That company. Sadly again, careers are interspersed with successes. And then, things change and evolve and move on. I left that company about a year ago. And since that time have been exploring what comes next. So I am happily free at the moment. And in that exploration phase. That's

Megan:

really exciting. And it's funny, cause I always wondered how you got into biotech. There is this almost full circle moment when I, hear your full journey of that sort of where you always wanted to be was in this biology related world. And it just, the journey went in a slightly different direction, but that you've ended up there or, got the opportunity to be there. Eventually, anyway, I think that's really like those kinds of connections and life are really interesting. When you look back, do you see connections and common threads?

Aarti:

Absolutely. I think first of all, a big caveat to the answer, which is that When life is actually happening. It doesn't feel like it necessarily has a direction. But when we look back on it and we reflect we've all got selective memories and we also are wired I think, our neurology, our brains are wired to look for patterns. So we impose patterns to make things look neat and tiny and tied up in a little bow. So make them make sense. Make them make sense. Absolutely. Make them make sense. So yes, I do see some parallels. There has always been a longstanding desire to do something in biology or medicine or the like. There's always been, a huge amount of fascination with anything scientific. So that's always been there. There's also been a huge fascination in my life with things that are technical. So when I look back at whether it's law or whether it's banking, and learning the finance world, these are highly technical subjects, right? Yeah. When you get down to the core of them. And so that's another common thread. Probably another common thread is that I like to build things, but I love that building phase again, I'm not the person who comes up with the idea but I think I have a skill at taking that idea and building it into something tangible, but once it gets built into that something tangible, it's time to move on to the next learning. So when I look back at my career the things that have caused me to have an eye open and look for that next opportunity have been, that this phase is over and I want to go on to the next phase. So those are, I think some of the common threads that, that I see are the common themes that I see in my career. And actually we'll talk about looking forward, but I'm actually trying to see if I can break some of those. But probably in the meantime, talk to me in five years, and the thread will continue, the circle will continue, because again, there'll be a pattern that will make sense of. But, at the moment, I'm really enjoying not following the original plan.

Megan:

Want to like, hear more about that. I'm interested in how you made some of those decisions. Choosing to join the big tech company with your family, that makes sense. And actually, it just occurred to me that you ended up in Connecticut anyway, eventually. Very true. But how are you making some of those decisions now? And how are you going about trying to break some of those habits? I think that's really Interesting and people either don't do it because it's scary because obviously it's comfortable to be in our habits or they don't find the time or take the time to even recognize some of those patterns. So I'm curious, how you're tackling that.

Aarti:

So in terms of the decisions of the past, I wish I could say that it was part of some grand plan. And I had this determination I am not like, for example, my mom who knew from the age of 10 or 11, she wanted to be a doctor and that's what she pursued. She made it through organic chem because that was The thing that she wanted. She got it. She told me she got a C in organic cancer. She barely squeaked by and still made it to med school. But anyway I think it was much more opportunistic than that. It was the decisions were a combination of the choices that were presented. Sometimes there was more than one choice. Sometimes it was, the bank accounts running low and you got to do something and this is good enough. So a combination of the choices in front of me and also the constraints that I felt. The constraints being things like, how much debt I might have had at that moment. The fact that I, had two young children and so needed a certain type of life. So I think that characterizes most of the decisions. What I'm trying to break at this moment is is actually looking at the world in that way, of looking at just the choices in front of me that have been handed to me or that have come away and the constraints. And I think part of it is is the freedom to be able to do that. One thing that, that was drilled into me from a very young age was you've got to have your nest egg, you've got to have your financial security. And so I worked really hard to to get that level of financial security to be at a point now where I can, I don't have the ability to do nothing. But I can do just about anything that I would be interested in doing. It's really exciting and scary at the same time. So when you talk about decisions and the like, I'm actively trying to create opportunities and to look for opportunities that, that I wouldn't otherwise have looked at. And I'm actively trying not to use the sort of invisible rules and constraints that we put on ourselves as being what causes me to choose amongst those opportunities. If, for example I this is one of the hobbies I've taken up that actually may end up becoming another source of income at some point, if in fact it ends up being something I enjoy doing. A friend of mine said to me a couple of years ago, he said that you're very monolithic in terms of your professional career. You do one thing and that's what you do. And there's not much time for other things. Have you thought about a portfolio career? And I just said I don't think I can multitask you know I like to be really invested in something but he's been, nudging away and nudging away at it or picking away at it. And about six months ago he said look you're not working, you've got time on your hands. You've got a little bit of play money saved up. So you've got your nest egg, but you've also got a little bit of play money. I'm going to introduce you to this person that I met who is a trader. And he is looking to teach his trade to others. Pardon the pun. And so I got to know this gentleman and I thought really highly of him and he has become a mentor and I've officially enrolled in his little educational program and I'm learning how to trade. It has nothing to do with anything that I've done previously. It's something that, that I would never have explored. But. I made it, making an active effort to look at the things that I would have just bypassed and really give them a second look and a trial. And I have to admit, I'm really, really enjoying it. I don't know if it'll ever become a second source of income, but it's certainly become a current source of a lot of enjoyment. Let's put it that way. That's amazing. Yeah. That's

Megan:

amazing. And I like what you were saying at the beginning too, is we're all making the best decisions we can with what's in front of us and what's in our head. Usually it's in our head, but other constraints as well. So I love that kind of just being more conscious of it and still looking at those things and weighing them, but being really conscious of them and just being like, okay, I'm actually going to listen to this opportunity or look at this opportunity and weigh it within. And just experiment a little bit by yeah, like doing the trading. That's cool.

Aarti:

Yeah. And it's experiment. I would take it one step further because this is also something that, that a mentor of mine challenged me to do, which is play around a bit. Right? Yeah. Be more playful. And I think that's something I really missed in the early part of my career and part of it was my upbringing. Part of it was my orientation and, all the constraints that you have that are real. And again, as you said, that are self imposed or self created, but I think I took my career very, very seriously for a very long time. And one of the things, one of the cycles that I'm trying to break is to be less serious about it. It'd be far more playful. And, not get concerned that I will lose my edge or that, I'll fade into something else like having more faith in myself and having faith in the world that says, You're still going to be as skilled or as good or as driven or things like that. You know, all of the things that, that I tie up in my identity and, you will still continue to strive. It doesn't mean that you can't also be playful at the same time.

Megan:

I think we're told we need to take it seriously, pick the right degree, get a good job. Work really hard. And so there's part of that that's just sort of expectation and what we're told. But I think being playful has, is, can be the edge, is the edge, because actually it brings a whole different brand. Perspective and thought process and because so few people are able to make that space it's just an added skill set to go on top of all the other skills you have in your toolbox, so to speak.

Aarti:

No, absolutely. And also I think part of it is we are conditioned to believe play is something that children do, that it's frivolous, it's not productive and the and I'm still not 100 percent there because I'm still noodling over this and figuring out if actually it's valid, right? Lots of people say it, but you have to experience it for yourself to undo the learnings and the biases that you've developed over your lifetime. But the. The other aspect, so it's undoing that, thought in your head or that notion that playfulness equals frivolous and frivolous equals unproductive and not driven and striving and all those other things that you think about when you think professionally. The other thing also with play, and I'm redefining a bit in my head is what play is. I think when you're playful, you are able to distance yourself from being so emotionally invested in the outcome and getting rid of that pressure. Losing that pressure actually is part of what gives you that edge. That allows you to be to have more mental cycles and emotional cycle to put on what you're doing, as opposed to worrying about what you're doing and worrying about the outcome and the implications of the outcome and things like that. It's not easy to do. And I don't think I would have been able to do it when I had all of those other practical and real constraints. Two kids, a mortgage, a bank account that wasn't secure, the all of those other kind of real constraints but those real constraints are temporary. You get through those in most cases.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really, I'd never had thought about. Like how being playful can actually free you from some of those worries. Like I certainly no, it can expand your thinking and like creativity and bring that side, but I hadn't thought of it from the other side of actually by doing that, you're also maybe lifting some of that weight of needing a specific outcome or needing to be perfect.

Aarti:

I think that's part of it. I would switch it around the other way, which is the way and the reason I poo pooed playfulness for a long time was because it was talked about in the same way that you just described it, which is, playfulness leads to greater creativity, greater freedom, fewer of those things. And making it a productive task again,

Megan:

instead

Aarti:

of yes. And for me, the reality is that playfulness takes away that pressure. And it's relief from that pressure that actually allows the creativity to emerge. So it's not great space for it. Yes. So it's not be playful with the objective of being more creative. Be playful so that so that you can get rid of all of the junk. That allows the other stuff to emerge and that other stuff might be creativity. It might be other opportunities. It might be fun and joy. But it's stuff that, that allows you to move forward or at least move in a different direction.

Megan:

Rather than being two sides of the same coin. It's actually, the journey and then you don't know what's going to be the outcome, but they're all positive potential things, even if it's just I had a lot of fun. Exactly. Exactly. so that conversation leads potentially to one of my other questions of if you could go back in time and give yourself, a piece of advice, what would that

Aarti:

advice be? So I'm going to, I'm going to engage in some poetic license here and say, actually, it's not just one piece of advice. I think it would be three pieces of advice, but I'll go through them reasonably quickly. All right. Thank you. So two of them we've touched on already one of them is about resilience and really investing in building resilience and not just financial resilience, which most people are told to do, but also physical resilience. So, focus on your health, which is go to the dentist, brush your teeth. It's considered one of those things that you should do, but a lot of people don't do. Take care. Prioritize it enough and then suffer later. So there's the create physical resilience to help you get through tough times. There's also emotional or personal resilience. And that comes from building a good solid base, a personal base of friends, family of others who who really are people who are well intentioned and have your best interests at heart. Interest or your interests at heart, right? People that will answer your call at two in the morning. And the people who be there for you, the people who will give you advice that's motivated and guidance and input that's motivated. Not from their own agenda, but because they support you and they care about you. And really investing in that and not ensuring that's as important. As developing the financial resilience, I think it's one thing that I would say you could afford to have a slightly smaller bank account in exchange for having more people in your life that that, that will be that village and that you will be there for that, that you can do because there's as much if not more to be gained. By actually giving as opposed to, as compared to receiving and other people supporting you. So I think investing in resilience would be one thing. The second thing, and we touched upon it a little bit as well, which is I had my identity very much tied up in what my business card said, what I did, was I a banker? Was I a chief exec of a company? Was I, head of X, Y, and Z, right. What, whatever happened to be And I'm, I would go back and say, just. Decrease that a little bit, diversify, just as you would diversify your portfolio, diversify your identity as well, because you'd never know what's going to happen. So that's the risk side of it. But the other side of it is, I think it makes you a much richer person, a much more interesting person and interesting, not only to other people, but interesting to yourself as well. So that would be advice number two. Advice number three or point number three, which we haven't touched on is, About people and about that word that is a very how should I call it controversial, which is networking success and progress professionally is not just about working hard and, putting yourself out there and applying and adding value. It's also the people that you help and the people who are going to be there for you. And it's also just Genuinely actually building relationships that come because you're genuinely curious and interested in those people, they're curious and interested in you. And that again, ties into the resilience part of it. I grew up too much with the belief and when I say grow up, throughout my life up to now not necessarily just in my childhood, with the belief that you work hard, you get the right grades you, produce the right output you over deliver against your number or your target, and you will get rewarded. And we do live in a meritocracy, but it's a very imperfect meritocracy is has been my experience. And actually it's kind of silly when I look back at all of those opportunities that were presented to me, they were presented by someone tapping me on the shoulder. But I never really thought of it in that way when it was happening. So I think if I could go back, probably one of the biggest things I would say is invest in the people around you invest in meaningful relationships, not transactional relationships, but meaningful professional relationships. Because not only will they help you with that resilience aspect of it, not only will these people be able to give you good sound advice or at least options that you can think about, but they will also support your success. And that's something that I feel like if I had known when I was 18, 20, you know, 30. That would have helped smooth out and make certain transitions much easier. And again, open more doors, created more opportunities.

Megan:

I think all three pieces of advice are really powerful and things that I'm just focusing on and learning right now. Like the health investment, the networking not being tied up in like my career is my whole identity. So yes, I would like you to also go back in time and give me that advice.

Aarti:

I have to say, I make it sound like this is sage advice that's been developed over the years. I've only come to this in the last four or five years to be able to crystallize these and start working on them. So it is, it's hot off the presses in a sense, right? Thank

Megan:

you. I guess the next thing is what's your vision for the future? What's next? Or I know you're in this exploratory time.

Aarti:

So near term professionally or near to medium term professionally, I'm not done being an in an operational role. So I am still. Looking for my next executive gig. I want to build the next thing. I want to see it come to fruition. I want to work with some technologists who are doing something incredibly cool. And I want to turn it into a a business reality that actually helps the world and helps people in some way, shape, or form. So that is, still the primary goal and the primary objective. We're in a tough market. That is probably, it may happen tomorrow, in which case, fantastic. We will I'll update you on that. It's more likely to happen in sort of six, 12 months. That's the timeframe that I'm looking at. So the way I so that's still out there and that's still something I want to do. And we'll see once I do it, whether it's something I want to do again and again, and again, do I want to do this serially or does something else present itself? But six to 12 months is a really long time. I'm realizing, it's, if you make use of it, if you add it up and look at the number of hours, the number of days that are on there, you can do some really productive things or really. meaty things. I shouldn't say productive, but meaningful and meaty things in that period of time. I'm committed to being an explorer during that time. I've got three or four things doing as I mentioned I'm learning how to trade. And I don't know how sustainable that is, how it will fit into life in future, but again, it's a lot of And it's It actually it allows me to practice one of the things I talked about we talked about which is that playfulness and that distancing yourself emotionally from things the art of trading I'm figuring out apart from all the technical analysis and all of that other stuff that the technical stuff is not. Getting emotionally invested in the wins and the losses, not having yourself being a roller coaster. It's all about the numbers and playing the odds and the like. And sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you want to make it so that the odds are tilted in your favor. You're in, you're out, there's no rumination. So it's really good practice in terms of being able to do something that you commit yourself to, that you enjoy, but you don't tie into your self worth, right? So that's one thing that's happening. The second thing is I am Looking forward to at some point having a portfolio career. So I'm investing in building the foundation of that portfolio career by looking at a few non executive director roles. So I'm have just verbally accepted becoming a non exec at a non executive director at a private company. In a field that I've never done before in, in property development and management. So that's an odd thing, but there you go. We're into odd things these days. And the other is actually I've applied to be a trust trustee at a charity that focuses on mental health and mental health services, and that's something that's always been very dear to my heart. I think a very worthwhile cause and it's something that I want to support. So that's. Setting the foundation of a non executive director career. And also it's a little bit of a life hack in the sense of if I've made a commitment to those kinds of things, then that next executive role won't cut into that because it's not discretionary. I've made an actual professional commitment to do something. So the next executive gig will have to fit itself around that. So that's another thing. And then the third thing that's going on Which is again quite speculative, but who knows where it would lead. But there's a couple of people that I know who are. One is a finance person once more of a commercial person. And we've been talking about supporting local small and medium sized businesses. Get themselves in trouble in some way. So things like they overextended and they've got creditors now that, the business just didn't live up to the expectations and they need to get some breathing room financially, or they opened one addition, one more restaurant and overextended in that way. Somehow they've gotten themselves into trouble where. They just need some breathing space right and they need to structure their business. And so we've been talking about putting our skill sets together and seeing if we can put together a professional service for them, which. I sit back and when I'm thinking about it in the, what I call the rational self, which is the one that, that, all the rules of five and 10 years ago, what the heck do you know about, somebody who, who owns a business that has six carwash locations, or someone who's a baker or someone who I don't know, runs a logistics business. These are real down to earth, you're not just like a foot from the ground, you are inches from the ground, right? You do tech and biotech, what do you know about these things? But business is business, and I'm discovering that I don't need to be an expert in their business. They are an expert in their business. They're not an expert in is the things that I know how to do. And I've picked up over the years, whether it's cash management, whether it's decided figuring out which parts of your business are actually the ones that, that are. Producing cash and which ones aren't the external pair of eyes coming in, looking at that and then helping them the business owner make those difficult changes and get to the point where they go from a potentially stretched and, not quite distressed, but definitely stressed business to a smaller business that's healthier. So we're talking about the idea of. We have these capabilities. We have the time on our hands. We have the understanding. Can we help other people? Can we help small business owners actually get themselves on a better footing while we're waiting to get our own on our own next foot? So there's a bunch of things that are swirling around. And again, they're all very different. You asked the question before about you look back at it, or you were hearing my story about my career and you looked upon it as a circle, right? That I started in something medical or biology related and did a whole bunch of things then came back to that, right? I don't see that thread in any of the things that I'm doing now, except for maybe the builder, the technical, sort of those types of things, which are very amorphous. You can make just about anything fit into those. And so I'm really curious to see two years from now, when I look back at it. Is this the start of a new circle, or is this a continuation of the old circle? But we'll see. So, what's next is completely unknown. But hopefully, the one thing that, will be part of it is being comfortable with whatever. That unknown thing is that's very

Megan:

exciting, and I'm sure a little bit scary, very

Aarti:

abstract and very scary, very uncertain. But but yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

Megan:

Amazing. And it certainly does not sound like you are bored or lacking in things to do. You sound very busy and I don't want to say focused busyness because that's again, making it all about productivity, but focused in terms of wanting to break some of the patterns. I guess I see the connection and how you're putting. What you want to do in terms of change and explore and have a play and actually truly putting that in practice and, exploring all these things that are very different and maybe a new circle or start to create a spiral or, I don't know you know, what that will look like. But obviously the connection is your skill set and capabilities, but then taking those in completely new and interesting and unknown ways.

Aarti:

I think that's true and don't get me wrong. I'm incredibly privileged and incredibly grateful to have the freedom to be able to do that. I'm fully conscious that many other people don't have that freedom, whether it's because they've got, personal constraints, they've got personal commitments, I'm at a point in my life where I've just recently become an empty nester. My parents are no longer with us. So I'm not part of that sandwich generation, right? I still have one part of the sandwich, which is financially dependent upon me and emotionally dependent upon me. But, I have a lot of freedom and a lot of flexibility to be able to play. And the other privilege that I have, which I always thought was not a privilege but I'm reframing it to be one and it feels right to, to position it that way, which is, it is a huge advantage for this phase that, That next executive opportunity has not yet come around that it will be a period of time before it comes around. Because if I were actively, had interview upon interview was it was a was full time applying for roles at the moment, and the there would be no time to do this exploration. The exploration would be a night weekend activity, but it would be incredibly pressurized, in some ways. It's a fantastic place to be. But again, I'm very conscious that it's a very privileged place to be. And I also have to say, it's not a place I've ever been before. So I am committed to squeezing the most out of it I possibly can to to see where it goes, right? To see where it takes me. All I would say is, maybe this is something else to go back and tell my younger self, which is, there will be periods of time in life where this happens where let's say this has happened to me multiple times in my career. You are given that dreaded pink slip or that dreaded, redundancy call. But many times, you may get a three, six, nine month garden leave or enough of a payout that gives you a bit of time. I would go back and say to myself, it's great to have that bit of time. It's great to be able to jump right back into the game. But there's also a lot to be gained by taking that pressure off and saying, I'm not even going to look for the next role for another four months, because I'm going to stretch myself in this direction, or I'm going to play or explore in that direction. I never did that during my early career. And, I'm sure there were opportunities to do that. It never felt like it that at the time. But again, coming back to what we said before, I think I defined experimentation and play as being frivolous and nonproductive, which is probably one of the bigger lessons learned as I look back.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean having time like that is. a gift because it is so rare and as you were saying to be in that position of okay, I'm not desperate for a job. So I'm comfortable enough that I can take the time because otherwise, if you are, in that kind of slog of looking for a job and in a, really needy place, which a lot of people find themselves, you don't have the headspace, even if you have some of the time, you definitely don't have the headspace in the same way to be able to take that step back. And it really is a gift to be able to have that time and take that time.

Aarti:

And fully agree. And I think when you say that, you don't have the headspace, I would really challenged my younger self and I would challenge, anybody who thinks they don't have the headspace. And there are times when you truly don't, right. When, you've got a rent payment or you've got school fees or whatever your constraint happens to be, that's coming up and you simply don't have the luxury of even contemplating that time. There are also other moments where objectively you actually do have, be able to do it, but that headspace is not there. Not because it doesn't have the potential to be there, but because you don't believe it's there or you don't prioritize creating it. It takes an active effort to create that. Or

Megan:

all that headspace is full of things like, doubts and worries from the self imposed constraints. And, there are of course real constraints, but the self imposed constraints.

Aarti:

And none of this is easy. I feel as I listen to myself speak that, Oh, this is incredibly easy. You take the space, you play whatever, last week I woke up in a full on panic thinking I really need to get on with it. What have I done? I've had some great conversations. I've met some great people, blah, blah, blah. But none of that. Actually felt valuable, right? And there were other days where, it was on par and there's other days where you feel like, Oh yeah, I have made progress. So it's not uniformly wonderful and it's not uniformly like, Oh my God, my life's going to come to an end and I'm never going to get another job again. And all those self doubts, all those worries come into play. It's not smooth. It's a process as they say. It's a process. It's a process. It's an absolute process and you figure things out when I feel that way, I grab the dog and it doesn't matter whether it's raining or it's sunny. Don't actually grab him, but. Pull him, yank him on the lead and take him out and we go for a walk. And I basically put myself in a situation where I can't sit in front of the laptop and doom scroll LinkedIn or other things, and if you know that you're 45 minutes away from your front door and you can't do that, you don't. So, so yeah, it's it's not smooth. It's not easy, but I do think it's worthwhile.

Megan:

Yeah.

Aarti:

Agreed. Agreed.

Megan:

And it, as you said, it's hard, but it's the effort is worth it. And when

Aarti:

you see the announcement from somebody else, Oh, I've started a new position. All those self doubts kick in, it's like, yeah, we're all vulnerable to that. But that's also where that resilience point comes in as well. It's so much not feeling envious, not feeling like maybe you're moving slower than anybody else. It's the, how do you recover from that? And regain your footing and regain the will to put one foot in front of the other and make that progress in, in the the direction. Yeah. Cause that's,

Megan:

They're very human and normal emotions, but it is that resilience. As you said, that's key. Amazing. Thank you. As I said before, your three points of advice are things that I'm also still learning and working on and I think they're really good. Good pieces of advice. And I I a loved your journey because it was sort of a circle, but now we don't know where it's going. And that's really exciting. And maybe we'll have to touch base in a couple of years and do an update episode and here where you are and see what those new connections might be and threads that link it together in hindsight. Absolutely. I think my,

Aarti:

my new mantra is watch the space. I love it. Thank you so much for this. I really appreciate your your having me on and allowing me to share my story with you. Well, thank you. Thank you for being on.

Megan:

I appreciate it. And yeah, it was a great conversation.

Arthie's journey is wonderfully varied, and I loved how much we were able to dig into her current process of discovery and playfulness. A few of my takeaways from her story are, first of all, her sense of practicality. She made the best decision she could with what was in front of her and the constraints she felt, whether they were external or self imposed. And I think that's all any of us can truly hope to do. I also really felt a sense of destiny in her story, and I don't mean like her path was predestined or laid out for her, but that science and technology found a way to weave itself into pretty much every part of her journey until now. I think there is something beautiful about the idea that you can have the opportunity to work in a field or a subject matter, even if it's in a completely different way than you might have imagined. The universe can be funny that way. And exploration. Her current phase is all about exploration and expanding her view of the opportunities and even the constraints. And while you can see the practicality in this phase two, as she had all her ducks in a row, so to speak, before leaning fully into the role of explorer, I can see how the explorer was always there, propelling her to pursue the next lesson when she felt that she had delivered on the last one. And Arthie shared so many amazing pieces of advice that I couldn't pick just one. So I've paraphrased and collated a few. Invest in your future by investing in health, relationships, and play now. Even if you have to have a slightly smaller bank account to make it work. And lastly, I'd like to share a book recommendation. And it will be two this time, both of which Arthie recommended to me when I first shared my vague idea about this podcast. The first I shared previously in Olivia's episode, but you can see it in Arthie's Journey too. And that's The Hundred Year Life, Living and Working in an Age of Longevity by Linda Gratton and Andrew J. Scott. And the second, you'll also see a lot of in Arthie's Journey. Range, How Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World by David Epstein. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.