The Unexpected Career Podcast
Real people’s stories to inspire at every twist and turn of building a career and a life.
Did you know what you wanted to be “when you grew up” when you were small? Is that what you are doing now? Most people don’t and yet there is so much pressure at every milestone in life to know exactly what you want to be doing and make the right decision, as if there are only a few “right” ways to create a life.
While there are cultural differences and systemic barriers that create real roadblocks and heighten this pressure for some, most individual decisions do not set your fate in stone. Most people I know have found themselves in a particular industry largely by accident and have built careers from there; taking steps forward, sideways and complete pivots around great (or terrible) bosses, company cultures that encouraged (or discouraged) them, changing life circumstances and evolving values. I’m excited to share the stories of people who have built their career and life on the winding road.
The Unexpected Career Podcast
Jocelynn Penzes: Unconventional Road to Financial Services Leader
Season 1 Episode 10: Jocelynn shares her slightly unconventional path towards leadership in financial services and how she backed herself while remaining true to herself throughout.
Book recommendation shared in this episode can be found here:
Mindset by Dr. Carol S Dweck - https://www.waterstones.com/book/mindset-updated-edition/carol-dweck/9781472139955
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Webpage: https://theunexpectedcareerpodcast.buzzsprout.com
Welcome to the unexpected career podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I'm Megan Dunford. And as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I am passionate about reducing the pressure on young people around going to university. What to take in school and on getting that right. First job. Today I am speaking with Jocelyn Penzes and she shares her unconventional journey into the world of financial services.
Megan:Thank you so much for doing this. I know it's your Sunday and, you've been so busy. So to take the time out of your resting time, to have a conversation about your journey, I really appreciate it. So thank you. And I. always start right from the beginning of when you were small, did you have an idea of what you wanted to be when you grew up? What was that when you were, a small child?
Jocelynn:I think I'm in a bit of an anomaly with that. I had some personal life struggles in my childhood effects of things that were outside of a child's control. So for me, I didn't have that. I want to be a doctor or I want to be this. It was just really a matter of just being. I do remember because I was thinking about it and I was like at one point I would say I want to be a paramedic, but I don't like blood and I don't like driving. So that goes out. I wanted to be a therapist at one point, but I think I just take on too many people's emotions and I think that would have been something really toxic for me. Yeah. So I played around with. care. Everything I was thinking of was like some way caring for people. And so it's interesting that I ended up completely on the opposite end of that. I don't do anything in my career that's really caring for people. So outside of managing people, that's the biggest thing, right? Is really, Caring for them, supporting them, their growth and their development. Some people would say that's even more care than being a doctor or a paramedic. But they're very different sides of it. So I think I ended up in a position of caring, but just in a very different aspect.
Megan:Not in the way that most people think about caring, but you're right, being a manager, the responsibility of being a manager and being a good manager, care is such a big part of that supporting people and helping. Shape their careers and help them develop. Yeah, I think you're right. It's such a big part of being a manager. So with that in mind of you didn't necessarily have one specific thing other than maybe this idea of care. So there were a couple of things, in the more traditional way that maybe were of interest to you and your, difficult childhood dealing with things outside of your control. How did you navigate the next steps? Did you go to university or college? What was the beginning of your career?
Jocelynn:As is everything with me, it was very unconventional. I didn't really follow the proper educational trajectory. High school, I basically did adult education to complete it to get my high school diploma. I started off working in bars and restaurants. It's interesting, when, you asked me about this, I started thinking about what I had done. And I started working as a shooter girl, and then I was a waitress, then I was the bar manager. I started as a hostess, then I was a waitress, then I was a shift lead. I started at Shoppers Drug Mart as a weekend cashier, and then they asked me to be the weekend manager. So there was always, Um, and I always getting promoted. It sounds like yeah, so people were seeing something in me that at the time I really don't think I saw. So all of these things were just happening to me. They weren't things I was actively seeking. So yeah. I really thought that was really interesting when I was looking back at it. And then I really got into the corporate world. And again I really fell into that as well. My stepmother worked at a company and I was an assistant receptionist. And then I became an education coordinator there. They got bought out. I got laid off. Reverted back to the bars because, It's easy. You can always get a job there. They're always hiring. I tried to interview at a bank. And it's funny, somebody we know was actually there at that bank and was starting the project of the company we worked at and contacted my mother, who was his connection to me and said, we've got positions here. I stamped checks. That's what I started doing and really worked my way up. And became through a lot of right place, right time. Some fun to my detriment, I slowed me down a little bit. I was always my own wild child. So it took me a while, but there were a lot of stepping stones. There were a lot of fails. I left that company after 10 years. went to a startup. The startup got bought out within the first year. And part of that contract was to close out. So I was one of the last employees helping legal return all of our licenses in all of the different states. Things I just never did. Like when I left for that startup, I built the office. I was working with architects and engineers of, wiring I had no clue what I was doing, but. I Googled a lot and I just did a lot of online reviews and YouTube videos to learn. So I just threw myself into all of those things found a job again, and then was recruited for the company that I'm at now, and I'm almost. Almost of my 10 years with this company started as the head of operations and I now sit on the board of directors for that company. When you say unexpected, that was all very unexpected. I didn't see myself ever being where I'm at.
Megan:That's really amazing because Especially what you were saying at the beginning when you first started talking about this journey is it's only in looking back that you're like, wait, I did have something and I just didn't see it in myself. and you're doing this really. big role. Like you said, you're on a board now. So how did you, how did you shape that or start to shape it or take some control? I would imagine you did. In the beginning, maybe things were you were going with the flow and like opportunities come, but was there a shift at any point of wait, actually I want this. And now I'm going to Go after it in a different way.
Jocelynn:Absolutely. I think I grew up there was just a pivotal moment in my life where I was like, I can be the middle of the pack. Or I can actually put in effort and do that. I had a lot of mentoring. I had a lot of great conversations with people that's really said they saw more in me than what I was putting out. And so at some point it connected and I grew up and I thought, you know what, if I try, what would happen? I really invested myself in, and once I put my head into the game of building a career and, getting really good stability in my life, something that I didn't really have a lot of things started to come a lot easier. It wasn't just right place, right time, right connections. Things started to come at a quicker pace and bigger and better offers came. With that and the additional responsibility. Further things started to connect for me. So I didn't have a university education. I didn't even have a college education. I had adult education completing my high school. So I started to think about this is great that I built this, but how do I sustain it without having any kind of documentation? So one of the companies I worked at had a really great educational program. So I applied for that and I started doing college at night. I completed that, it took a long time because it's hard to have a full time job with responsibilities. And then doing college courses at night. So it did take a while to complete it, but I stuck with it. I never put that on the hold. That was always a really big goal for me was to complete that. I completed it with a 92 percent average. Wow. Cool. So if I apply myself, I can do things. It just took a long time for me to learn that. And that was something that people saw in me, people fostered for me and mentored me in, I had to connect to that. Right. And without me connecting to it, none of that would have happened. And then I took it a step further and I went to Osgoode at York University and I did the regulatory compliance and legal risk management for financial institutions. And so now I have. Some certifications behind my actual experience. So mm-hmm It was just growing up and connecting to myself, being true to myself and what I was actually capable of.
Megan:Wow. First of all. You should be really proud of yourself because it isn't easy to do school and work full time and, have responsibility at work, And then on top of it, Getting 92 percent is really impressive. I think there's also something I think really powerful about the idea. And this is one of the things that inspired me to do the podcast in general is the idea of it's never too late. Like you can. make different decisions at different points of your life. Very few things set your fate in stone. It might be harder when you want to change or do something later. But it's not impossible. And if you want it and you put the time and the effort in it's there you can accomplish different things or change your mind and do something different. And your journey really speaks to that of. You made different decisions later and then really, change the trajectory..
Jocelynn:It takes a lot of work, right. It's one thing to say it and to change your ideas, but then to actually put the actions behind it, that was a hard part, right? Applying for the education, Grants and development and starting my secondary education that way. That was easy, but actually accomplishing it. That was the hard part, right?
Megan:So that was sticking with it and then accomplishing it because it is work and day to day life can feel exhausting, just in a regular scenario. And certainly when you first started out, you were, you had other things that you were dealing with. And then on top of that, to then make these changes, I just think it's really impressive. And I know I've already said it, but you should be really proud of yourself. And I, I hope you are. I think you are. But yeah, it's a huge accomplishment.
Jocelynn:Yeah, it's it's very interesting to look back. And I think a huge part of what my childhood was like, what maybe not great life choices I was making for myself in my early twenties, thirties. I take that as a stepping stone because that made me stronger. That made me independent. That made me more of a fighter. So it changed a lot of things. And I, I think for some people, those can be blocks that hold them back. Those are just things that happen to me. So pack it up, pick it up, take it with you and try to grow from it. And I think that's a really hard mentality. And I don't know if everybody can have that mentality. I feel like That takes a lot of work, that takes a lot of time, a lot of reflection and I don't think that everyone gives themselves that chance to just stop, slow down, reflect on what's going on around them, and what they want. And I think that if more people did that, they would find themselves in different situations.
Megan:You're right and it's hard. It is hard to do and I think it's scary to do for a lot of people it's easier to just keep moving or just taking things as they come and not doing the reflection. Because going back to what you were saying before actually. Doing something different is hard work and scary. You don't know the outcome I think I saw this on social media somewhere, it's about self sabotage and we self sabotage ourselves, cause then we know the outcome, whereas if we actually did the hard thing that we want to do, The outcome of that is actually unknown. And that's something that's stuck with me since I saw and it makes sense to me. You're right. It's hard work. I think the other thing I think is really something people undervalue in their own journeys is those skill sets you get outside of roles that you experiences and roles that are outside of what you would consider your career. So Your financial services career, that's maybe your career, but you'd have all those, all the skills you learn by working in restaurants and bars. Those are invaluable skills to take into the business world. And I think a lot of people, when they think about, even if they're in that role now, it's like, Oh, like I'm wasting my time or I can't get that other thing. But actually having those skills of dealing with drunk people, dealing with customers in general managing young people. You were promoted up into management roles in the service industry. So you're managing people who are young as well, who also are still figuring it out. So are sometimes harder to manage. Those are really amazing skills when you look back through your career journey. Are there things like that, that you see that are common threads or that have really you brought forward and and picturing a pyramid where you're adding building blocks on so when you do reflect and look back, what are some of those common connections.
Jocelynn:Being a people person, to be honest, it's, it was really all about that because if I didn't have the relationships that I had with the people I worked with, I wouldn't have created the connections in my career. I wouldn't have had people that actually cared about me and mentored me and, maybe had some tough conversations with me. I wouldn't have been in a position to manage people because I wouldn't have known how to connect properly with people. And it's about connection. And like I said It's care, but in just a different aspect. So for me, it was always about the people and it was always about the relationships that I built, who I was as a person, just being honest and authentic. With me, you always are going to get the good, the bad, the ugly. I don't try to hide things. I take ownership and I'm honest. So I think just being that general person. Is the skill that I learned in all of the different jobs, but I think it's also the one that has helped me obtain all of those jobs and obtain the positions that I'm in today. Without people around you that care and support you and without caring and supporting about the other people that are around you, nobody's going to go anywhere.
Megan:That's very underrated I think, and when people think about, building your career, building a business. I think it's underrated and you're right. It is ultimately. It creates connections that creates opportunities and it creates relationships, which make work just better in my personal opinion. When you have that sense of care and we're in it together. the other thing you were saying is about authenticity, and you are genuinely yourself. All the time and that takes that idea of being a people person and caring to the next level, because without that it's hard to build trust or like real relationships you always Do know when you're speaking with you that you're getting Jocelynn's real opinion and Jocelynn's and if you don't know something You're gonna also say that and then we can work out, you know what the answer is or the solution So there's so much trust in that which is So key in relationships, but it's hard for people to do and I'm gonna speak for myself here a little bit I'm more on the introverted side. And so I wouldn't say that I'm not You Genuine, but it takes me a long time to warm up to people and to let people in. And so it's a hard thing of balancing that sometimes. And I think it's a real advantage and skill. Did you always see it that way? Were you always comfortable just being yourself like that? Cause lots of people either feel the need to hide or or are scared to show their real selves.
Jocelynn:Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it all kind of relates back to how you start your life. So for me. My house, even though there were things wrong with it, it was a social place, right? There were always people there. It was like a little bit of a party house. So I just kind of got to know people, right? And I think I grew up in a place of. Everybody can be let go, which is a really bad thing to say, but everybody can be let go. So I was just always willing to open myself up and be who I am. A lot of the times I've stuck my foot in my mouth horribly. But I was okay to take that risk because for me, the consequence was. If I wasn't comfortable or something was wrong with that relationship in any way, I could step away from it, and I knew that was an option. So I think that changes it, right? Having that knowledge of sometimes you can walk away, and that's completely okay, I think is different, and I think that's what a lot of people don't get. Mm hmm. So a lot of people are guarded. This is just my perspective because I don't know different from how I am, but I think the opposite of that would be people are guarded because they want to make sure they know when they can trust before they do that. And for me, on the other hand, I'm like, Hey, how's it going? Let's have a conversation. Here I am. So I just think it's a different thing. And I think that putting myself out there like that, learning failures like you said I'm pretty much an open book. So if something has upset me, you're also going to see it and things like that. So I have had to learn how to. Tone that back a little bit without losing who I am. Yeah. Especially in the positions that I'm in. And I think that's something I'm still very much working on and learning on, is I am such an open book that my face will sometimes also talk for me. Yeah. So by no means is it a perfect science and is it something that I continue to work on and develop. But yeah. I think that's the difference is I learned that it's okay to create boundaries and say no. After a relationship has been created. Yeah.
Megan:I think that's, that's a life skill, let alone a career skill and something you were saying about trust is. Lots of people are waiting to prove that you can give trust, like that the trust is there, but you almost have to start with that. And then if, your trust gets broken in some way then it's a different conversation. But just from a relationship building standpoint, and certainly like in a business standpoint, you have to start with that trust. And then if it's broken, make a different decision or go a different route. But It's really hard to get anything done, certainly in a corporate world, but I would say in life, if you're always starting on the defensive. I think there's some valuable lessons in there.
Jocelynn:I think it's open not always in my career has every review been great. Right? Yeah. You're going to have negative reviews. You're going to have some people that like your management style, some people that don't connect to your management style. So I've had to have some hard feedback within that group. And if you are open, then you are open to that as constructive criticism instead of an attack. And those moments in my life, they could have defined me or they could have let me change. And I always. Have re seeked out like support from HR, especially when I started my management career because that's what they're there for, right? And so I use those tools that companies give us to become better managers. And as I stumbled within that, I also reached out for help and I was okay to reach out for help, I think because of all of those people skills where I was just okay to go and talk to somebody and say, Hey, this is a review I got from one of my employees. How do I fix this? How can I make that better? What are the tools I can use? Just not being afraid and being a people person, you also want to please people. So you're more open to change and reflection of how you can please people. So I think all of those are the soft skills that have helped me develop, I know a manager had to give me difficult feedback and was really nervous about the conversation. And I was like, okay, great. How do we fix it? And that was not the expectation. I could see the shock on his face. Speaking of faces that can tell you what they're saying. He was like, I didn't expect that. And I'm like, but the thing is, if that's what the feedback is, then that's what it is, right? Yeah. I can disagree with it. That's what's being given to me. So how do we fix it? How do we come to a place where we both can agree? And I think that's a unique thought process that I have as is okay, I don't like it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but how do we fix it? And that's the only response. And I think that's helped me a lot.
Megan:I would say that's a unique perspective that you bring because, and that's that's like a manager's dream of no one likes having those conversations at the end of the day on either side of the table. But for leaders to see that in someone, I would say that's beautiful. Even more maybe than your people skills of helped propel you to where you are and really allowed you to take in all that learning because you're just you're open to all that feedback. And I think that is unique and something I know personally something I'm always trying to get better at because it's not my natural starting point. I usually start with this is nonsense. and then I write it all out in an angry response. I always do it in writing to myself. And then it's okay, actually there's some lessons in here and we can move forward. But you start two days before me in how you respond. And just all the time savings of that, but just, yeah. The capacity to not translate everything into it's a personal thing. It's like maybe there's a learning opportunity here, whether you agree or not. As you said,
Jocelynn:at the end of the day, if the people that you work with, you spend more time with them mm-hmm In that environment than you do with the people you choose to be around. So if you are having an impact on that, whether you agree with it or not. If that is how somebody has felt and they've voiced that or expressed it in any sort of way It has to be given validity. And Like I said, I have not always liked it, but my first reaction is how can we fix it, right? Yeah. And maybe you can't. Sometimes you can't fix everything and you can't fix, working relationships and that's fine. As long as, both parties can be professional and treat each other in such a manner. Yeah. Then there's all these different personalities that are not choosing to be in the same place necessarily. Right? It's not your circle of friends. It's not that. It's a group of people that have come together for one common goal and that's a career and that's financial, security. So you're going to have a lot of different personalities in that mix. And it's not always going to be a perfect mix, but understanding that there's a work environment, there's a work that has to get done, there's professionalism within the office that has to be honored. I think can also slowly fix things, even if your immediate actions can't. So for me, it's just trying to be open and authentic. That's really all I can offer. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm a person. I know that I can accept that. I have I, I am not here because I did everything perfectly.
Megan:No, no one's perfect. And you were Mentioning like perception is reality. So someone's perception is their reality. And so you have to take that as a starting point. So I think that's amazing. And honestly. Good for you. That is a really good and powerful and unique skill to be bringing to the table.
Jocelynn:Just being open to your mistakes. If they say it, then it's, that's how they feel. So whether you say it or not.
Megan:A hundred percent. That leads to my next question when you look back on your, career journey, is there a piece of advice that you wish you could go back in time and give yourself?
Jocelynn:Just be kinder to myself, I think is like the biggest one. I feel like. I had to fall to succeed, right? I could go back and I could tell myself get your stuff together quicker. Pay more attention to what's around you. But, I just wasn't in that place, I feel like it's really difficult, because the person that I was, Starting my career versus the person that I am. I don't even know those two people. It just seems so different to look back at my time. She might not be willing to take the advice from. Oh, she wouldn't have been. She Yeah she was not as open and reflective. She, she didn't go through a lot of developmental work on herself at that point. But I think I would have just said it's okay to fall. Yeah, it's okay to fall. And to be honest, I think that was one of my greatest achievements is that I could fall and pick myself back up and didn't let It do defining moments for me, because there were a lot of things that could have very much changed the trajectory for my life. I didn't let. So just be kinder to yourself, be softer with yourself. And I think that might have come a little bit quicker, right?
Megan:That's a, I think it's just great advice in general. And. I think for most people, and it's an evolution I it's a piece of advice that I think still applies, for myself and other people I know. And I think, now I'm in my forties, am I better at it than when I was in my twenties? Yes, I think so. But it's a lifelong journey of how to take care of yourself. Be kind to yourself. So it's a great piece of advice really for any age.
Jocelynn:Yeah, no I just say, it, I think it takes time. I think it takes time. And I think everybody just connects to things that are important. differently. A lot of mine was the right place at the right time too, right? And a lot of connections that I had that maybe other people don't have access to as much. So for them, to get a foot in the door is a little bit harder. But As you know as well, being a female, achieving some of the things that you and I have both achieved in our career can be a little bit more difficult as well. Yeah, that's true. I think especially in a financial industry as much as it is evolving and there's so much great work in the space of openness and inclusivity and all those good things. I think it still has. A fundamental underlying a little bit of a boys club.
Megan:It's a traditionally male environment. it's evolving, but that foundation is still that kind of traditional boys club, as you said.
Jocelynn:When I started, the dealing floor was and the company that I'm at now we're at a 50 50 split, which I think is not common. That's amazing. It's not common practice. But I think that, that's also something that has had an impact as well. If you have a male manager, that's a little bit tougher, I feel like that's expected. Right. And a female manager that might be, say the same, exact same things, but it can come across as two different ways. So I also think that, there's a lot of learning I had to do around that. And to also not take that personal, right? That's not a reflection of me. That's a reflection of somebody else. And I think I would have given myself that advice when I was younger too.
Megan:That's a good point of I'm not gonna speak for you. I'm gonna speak from my own experience and feel free to add in, but when I was in my twenties, I didn't see or know about any of those things really. They're happening, and until it's explicitly happening, because a lot of it's not explicit, when you're young, you think, Oh, actually, this is something I need to work on or Oh, I'm not confident enough or whatever, you're getting that kind of feedback. And then once you start to see it, it's A, enlightening, but B, for me personally, when I first started seeing it for what it was and recognizing it in situations, in the very beginning, I found that quite exhausting. So it would have been beneficial to always known it was there. Cause you lose time, not knowing it's happening. So you're not counteracting it in any way. And then you have to go through this period of Oh God, it's everywhere. And that's overwhelming and exhausting. And then you get to the point of okay, it is. And these are the strategies and also how I'm going to be part of evolving it or changing it or helping others within the process. Yeah, like that journey is quite long. So
Jocelynn:it really is. It really is. Although I feel like my bar experience translated really well into managing dealers. I could, I could see that actually. I felt like it was a very natural progression. Yeah. And it went from something that was very overt to something that was very subtle. But it's the still the same. Yeah, it was. It was there. Yeah, who knows? Maybe being a bartender and a bar manager at the beginning of my career set me up for success with a very interesting industry.
Megan:I'm sure it did in many ways. I think all those experiences from our, non career roles still add so much value. There's so many things you learn, whether you're consciously or not taking that forward, it's. If you have a different skill set than someone who hasn't gone through that experience who didn't work in a bar so yeah, so I think it, it really does make a difference for sure. When you look forward, so we've done looking back, when you look forward, what's your vision or hope for the future?
Jocelynn:I mean, that's difficult. I would like to, so I worked with a really international company, which has given me incredible experiences. I just spent nine weeks in Spain helping support a new office development and growth. And it really. opened up my eyes to the fact that I've done great things here in Canada, but there's a global side to this company. For me, I think I'd like to see myself in a global leadership role. Really taking on more, Responsibilities of not just Canada that there's, this whole big world out there. So for me, it's definitely a global company. It's to continue my personal development and my team leadership development. I think if you stop that, then you become stagnant. So definitely just constantly trying to find. new ways to develop that, evolve that, continue to work with we have an incredible HR team, right? Continually to lean on the tools that were given as managers and really learning their tools. They're helpful. They're great. A lot of people are afraid of HR, and I think that it's just such a wrong thing. It's human resources, they want to help. So yeah, for me it's continuing to build myself as a person, as a manager, I would like to see myself in a global role and then hopefully retire young enough to actually enjoy retirement. I think I'm a closer. I'm closer to the retirement age now, scary as that is, than I am to the start of my career. Putting myself in a global role and then really looking to what my life would be like and having a good quality of life in that retirement.
Megan:That's amazing. And I have, I hope I've said it before, but I have so much faith in your abilities and your possibilities. So I'm sure you will do it and then do it amazingly. And just the mindset of, when you talked about your vision, part of your vision is that continuing to develop and get better so that's so woven into how you not only how you've gotten to where you today, but how you even envision continuing I'm excited to, to watch and see yeah, we'll have to meet up the next time in Europe. Yes. Oh, that would be amazing. Wouldn't that be fun? Yeah. Yeah. And as I have all these conversations with people for the podcast, I'll have to check in with people in two or three years and see where they're at. And if there's new things they want to share or updates cause yeah, now now I'm invested at all these other people's journeys so yeah, it's been fun.
Jocelynn:So excited. You asked me, I was like this is incredible. And I think it's important to really highlight. that some people will do all the steps the right way. And some people have that vision of where they want to be. And then some people will stumble and fall and figure it out. Some people will stumble and fall and be the middle of the pack and that's good for them. And that's totally fine. It, you don't have to end up in a head of operations role, a director's role, an ownership of a company, That's not for everybody and that's okay. So I think talking about career and what career looks like for everyone is really exciting because it's definitely not the same thing.
Megan:Everyone wants and needs something different and they have their own way of getting there. There isn't a right way to build a career. There isn't a right way to build a life and it's okay. And, we're all human and we're going to make mistakes and we have to find our own way and all this pressure on people at every point.
Jocelynn:It's actually really funny you say that because my experiences with being in Spain they have a lot of pressure, everyone that I interviewed, they are very young, and they all have masters. Because it's been ingrained in them that they have to do that. And that that's going to be their leg up. But then the problem is you have every single resume coming in with a master's. So it loses that step up and then they have, it also
Megan:reinforces you have to have it because everyone has it.
Jocelynn:Yeah. And now they're doing two and three to be better than everybody else. And then it's it's just education for the sake of education at that point, because it's really not, they're not doing masters for things that want to help them. They're just doing it because
Megan:They feel like they have to,
Jocelynn:there is, there's this like big cultural movement that says that they have to do this. So I think, it's, education and something like that is just it's ingrained and I think it's cultural and I think it's, it's country specific and I'm really starting to learn that as I'm expanding my, management in different countries and learning, what that cultural difference looks like. I feel like there's a lot more pressure for that in the generation coming up than I felt when I was a kid. When I graduated high school, was given my diploma I didn't necessarily, and maybe that's my upbringing, but like a lot of my friends didn't just go straight into university. A lot of them like took some time to figure it out first. That was acceptable, and I don't get the same sense as that.
Megan:Yeah. So I think that's one thing, those nuances and how different countries, but also cultures. And those are real obstacles and things people do have to face. I'm also seeing it in people I know who have children who are about to go to university or in university and that conversation of what they're taking and what school they're going to. And it's it's not that it doesn't matter. Cause that would be untrue. Cause there is this is a societal perception and there are companies who will only hire from certain universities and whatever like that, those are real things. But that doesn't mean that path is completely closed. If you want to do it, there are other ways around. So maybe it's not that company, but you can still be in the industry and gain all this experience. Yeah it's an interesting one. Yeah.
Jocelynn:I walked into a very entry level position, which I think a lot of people that walk out with this degree wouldn't have maybe accepted they're like I have this degree. And I was I got nothing. Let's go. I was able to work my way up and then I was able to see the advantage of supporting that with an education. And so I did. I definitely did things in the reverse of that, but don't get me wrong, but I feel like I'm seeing more and more people coming out of university with an expectation of what that's supposed to get for them.
Megan:Which is, I don't certainly from our generation, even if you did go to university, almost everyone I knew started an entry level now they might be lucky to start a really big company that a grad program, so slightly More interesting because usually the grad programs you get to do a little bit more rotation. I started entry level more than once. And sometimes when you're in the role, they're like, Oh, Wait, you're smart. And they just started giving me other things to do. And a lot of the stuff I was doing, you just got involved by accident. It was unofficial until it became official.
Jocelynn:So true. So true. We're going to test the waters and see how you do with this. And then if you can do it, yeah, we'll give it to you.
Megan:I feel like we could have a very long conversation about this. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your lessons and and that reflection, I think a, your journey is really interesting and powerful and I think will be inspiring to others. But there are so many lessons in there as well, that regardless of people's experience and background are really going to apply. So thank you for being you and being so open. I appreciate it. And sharing not only your journey, but your reflection on that journey as well. So thank you.
Jocelynn:Oh, you're so welcome. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.
Jocelynn's story is full of growth and resilience. Three of the things that really stood out to me were, first of all, right place, right time. And I don't mean that Jocelynn's journey is just one of luck. Although she mentions that there were those moments too. But it's also that sometimes you have to be ready for the belief others have had in you to connect into your own self belief and then take control of what's next. Second, Authenticity. Jocelynn is comfortable being herself and bringing her true self. And that has allowed her to build relationships and gain mentors and sponsors even early in her career when she didn't necessarily see her own potential. And it has allowed her to bring that value of care into how she manages her team. And third, growth minded. Throughout the sharing of her journey, she shares examples of reflecting, asking for advice, and asking for help, using the tools available to her to learn, and responding to constructive criticism with a, okay, how can we fix it? Jocelynn's advice to her younger self is also something that we should all remember, no matter our age, and that's just been Be kind to yourself. You're human and you will make mistakes. Lastly, I'd love to leave you with a book recommendation, mindset by Dr. Carol S. Dweck. Thank you for listening to the Unexpected Career Podcast. This was the last episode of Season 1, so please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. And we'll see you soon for Season 2.