The Unexpected Career Podcast

Rachel Gilbert: Maths Teacher to Wine Shop Owner

• Megan Dunford • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Season 2 Episode 1: Rachel wanted to work with animals from a young age before ultimately becoming a teacher.  After experiencing burnout she made a big pivot and is now co-owner of a wine shop that specializes in American wines from the West Coast, https://www.pacificwines.co.uk/

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Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I'm Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people around going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I'm speaking with Rachel Gilbert, co owner of Pacific Wines, a London wine shop that specializes in wineries from the west coast of the United States of America. She shares her journey to shop owner from her first career as a secondary school maths teacher.

Megan:

Awesome. First of all, thank you for joining and answering a out of the blue random email from someone who went to a wine tasting at your shop. I appreciate it. That's absolutely fine. Yeah and I know we had a little kind of intro prep call and I was already excited to dig into your story. But there's so many layers to it that after, we talked, I'm even more excited and to discuss it, but also share it because I think it's really interesting and inspiring. So, yeah. Thank you.

Rachel:

No, thank you. I don't think I've ever been called inspiring before.

Megan:

Amazing. I'm honored to be the first. I'm sure I will not be the last. So yeah, let's jump in. And I always start right from the beginning of when you were small, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Rachel:

The first thing I can remember wanting to be was either a Barbie or a singer. Only one of those was realistic, and to be honest, I think it's probably more likely the Barbie than it is the singer. However much I absolutely love belting my voice out, it's not necessarily to everybody else's enjoyment. But I think the thing that I really had my sights set on would have been to be a vet. I fell in love with animals at a very young age. And realistically, when you're that young, there's only a small number of kind of very loud jobs that, that we conceptualize. And they're very gendered as well. And I think being a vet was one of the few things that wasn't so gendered. Being a vet was the first thing that was like an actual formed thought in my head of I could do that when I'm older. And realistically, that was the vein that I stayed on all the way through until applying for university. So, very strong. Very strong one, that one was. And I think I did a lot of work with animals in my teenage years. I volunteered at a animal shelter in my local area where I grew up in the Midlands. And I volunteered at veterinary clinics as well both in my local area. And I have family members who've worked in veterinary clinics, so I'd go and stay down south and work on the farms and things like that which was really cool. I also volunteered in my local stables, because again, countryside, and did a lot of mucking out. Horse poop, which still didn't dissuade me. So a lot of work in that realm there.

Megan:

That's amazing. And it's clearly a passion because you spent so much time working in the different areas. Is that what you ended up taking in university?

Rachel:

Yeah, no. I. So when I was working with animals in more of a supportive capacity, I really enjoyed it. And then as you go to, to apply for university, especially if you're applying for veterinary doctor, all of these kind of professions, you have to have a lot of experience in order, a lot of work experience, sorry, in order to stand any chance. So I went and I just did as much in veterinary work experience as I possibly could. And I realized that while working down on the farms was really good fun. I even went to South Africa and worked for three weeks in a veterinary clinic out there, which was insane experience. I was so fortunate to be able to do something like that. I loved it, but when I was working in the UK and a standard practice, I found that the day to day repetitive nature of just quite a lot of spays and neuters and quite a lot of putting an animal down was just not what I was expecting it to be. And I think Especially just putting the animals down I realized that it doesn't quite sit with my, it's not really my personality, more just my nature, I think it wasn't quite right for me and I realized that, unfortunately, after I had applied for veterinary at

university, um, thankfully,

Rachel:

I had applied, a catcher safety net, I'd applied to Liverpool for zoology, And I got into that. So I took that. I was like, I don't think I could hack veterinary. It's not just a difficult profession in terms of academics. It is emotionally a very difficult profession, I think. When you love animals, which vets tend to I think it is emotionally very hard. And it just wasn't going to sit with me. So I was very fortunate. I got to study animals. I got to study animals in a more historical manner, which I really love. And it, you know, going to university, it's not going to be for everybody. But one of the things that I kind of learned by just going and doing zoology, was that going to uni as a general concept was really useful to teach myself how to learn. Because it was the first time. Really, you are on your own learning, and you don't realize, you think in A levels you're on your own learning, but you're not, there's so much of a support system in comparison to university. It was the first time I saw a lot of That very stereotypical person who coasted through GCSEs, put a little bit of work in at A levels really start to suffer at university because, actually they can't coast anymore. I was never that person. I was never able to coast. I always had to put the effort in which actually was quite useful for me, I think it is a useful thing to do if you have the ability to do so, really just to do anything. And I think the rest of my story shows you don't need to do anything at uni that links to the rest of what you're going to do.

Megan:

To your point, that skill of learning is So important for the rest of your life. And I agree from a perspective of what to take a university what I took a university has nothing to do with what I'm doing today. I think, you should just take something that's interesting to you because then it gives you the space to. Do the learning to learn and learning how to be a grown up, how to do things on your own. All of that. And to your point, GCSEs and A levels, you are learning to a test. So memorization can be a way to be successful there. We haven't necessarily learned how to learn. You've learned how to memorize.

Rachel:

I mean, there's that very common thing, isn't it? You take the test. And within two hours, you've literally forgotten everything you've ever learned and you can come out with an A. You can come out with 90 percent and you've literally forgotten everything within two hours. And that was so common for things for me, which yeah, I've most likely got got ADHD. And I feel like especially women with ADHD at that time there was not really an understanding of our distraction levels and all of that. Coping mechanisms that we had to go through and really learning to the test was very hard. And I remember being incredibly angry at myself that I would learn to this task and it would be really hard and I put so much effort in and then it would just be gone. The next day I couldn't remember anything and I, and then it would never come back. It wasn't just the stress. It wasn't just that I was, my brain was stressed and just taking a few days off. I literally just could never remember it again. And it was always stuff that I wasn't as passionate about that, that happened with. It's fascinating really, but it is a skill in our lives. There will always be things we are not passionate about that we have to succeed in or do well in or do our best in. So learning those skills to push ourselves when we're not as passionate is important. We can't just do everything we love all the time.

Megan:

Even when you're pursuing the things you love, there are going to be elements that aren't fun, like admin or sales or taxes, whatever it is for you. All those things still exist. Yeah. 100 percent aligned with that philosophy. So you took zoology in university. What was your first job out of university? Did you continue working with animals?

Rachel:

It depends on how animalistic you characterize tiny humans. But they always say, never work with animals or children, and apparently that's the only two things I've ever wanted to work with. No, I think I was at Liverpool University is a wonderful university. I found it fit me incredibly well. It is a very academic university and it's very highly regarded, but it's also very down to earth and supportive. I went through quite a few issues when I was at university with my mental health and they supported me incredibly well, actually. I got 12 weeks of free therapy through Livable Uni, which was incredible and at the time that's amazing. Especially, we're talking a decade ago here, more God, it's horrible to think about that but we're And even back then, they was so big on that and, I was very fortunate that I did my dissertation at the time I did, because it was one of the very first few years they had allowed the sciences to do a schools based dissertation, and I worked with primary school children and it was a two fold dissertation. So I worked, it sounds awful to say this, but an experiment on the children not that I was literally on children, just with their education and an experiment with the children as well. So we looked at how. Getting kids to physically involve themselves in scientific experiments would change their perception on what a scientist was and also how that would then impact their ability to learn. So we took two different classes, one of them we did very rote textbook learning on a particular subject and the other one we did scientific experiments where we went out into fields and we collected data. Interesting bugs and all cool stuff in the field and all of that at the same topic before we did those two things, we gave them a pre test and a little exercise to be like, what do you think a scientist is? Sure, what a scientist? I mean, these are 8 year old kids. And then after we'd done it all, we did the same concept, a post test, and then what do you think a scientist is now? And it was just to see if getting kids actually involved in in the science themselves had an impact on their perceptions of scientists. and their ability to learn. And generally, the answer was kind of yes, but we need to do a little bit more research, which is the most scientific answer you can ever really come up with. But on a personal level, I loved working with children and I bring up the therapy because I remember sitting in that room with this lovely man me as a very jittery young 21 year old, 20 year old, and him go, I've never seen you more Energetic and excited than when you are talking about these kids and talking about doing these experiments with them it made me realize that yeah, I need to understand what i'm passionate about and what actually gives me drive what brings me forward and it was such an eye opening experience to me that I'd had such a good time with these kids that I actually could, I could channel that and go forward with that. So I started doing my research, could I work in a school? How would I go about doing that? What were my avenues? And while there were a lot of avenues, a lot of them, unfortunately, I'd missed the deadlines for at this point in the year. So I was, I was thinking about being a teaching and support assistant because I do that, but you do need a lot of experience. And now having worked in schools, I understand why they wouldn't want a fresh out of university no experience in teaching, graduate going and jumping straight to classrooms. So I found a really wonderful charity called City Year. They work twofold. So they work with young people 18 to 25 to give them it's technically a volunteering role, but it is a year's job. And the same time is that you get a lot of training, like one day a week, you'd have people coming in from banks and law firms from every which different industry you could think of to do training with you. And then on the other side, those 18 to 25 year olds were put into schools to support low income schools in low associated economic areas of London and Birmingham at the time. So I was placed in a secondary school in London and I had requested to be placed in a primary school because obviously what I'd worked with was primary school children. So I thought, oh, that'd be really cool, go placed in a primary school. And really support these kids and learn if that's the kind of place I want to be. And they put me in a secondary school and I was like, what? Secondary all boys, inner city London school. And I was like, okay, this is going to be interesting. This is like the opposite of what I asked for. And I absolutely loved it. In all honesty, it was the kind of second or third time in that short space of time where my life had been Give it a different path than what I had expected and I'd gone with it to see what was going to happen.

Megan:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And. Each time I take in what I've learned from that situation and try to apply it to the next path. And then that route was slightly altered and I thought what can I learn from this? What do I enjoy? I learned I didn't want to work in veterinary so I went and just Did a load of animal stuff. Then I learned, oh, I don't really, like a lot of people at zoology went and they worked in zoological fields, especially marine sciences was a big one for my year group. And I was like, no, I don't like tiny bugs. I don't like the feeling of creepy crawlies on me or bacteria on me. I, that's not, it's not for me. What made them do is that animal not animals, children. So then I like kids, primary school kids. And then it's like, oh no. Secondary school kids in the City of London.

Megan:

So not exactly a straight line, but kind of a jagged line.

Rachel:

Yes, but all kind of, at the end of the day, I was learning in that stage of learning, I was very receptive to just giving it a shot and seeing what would happen and making sure that I was going down a, I was putting the effort in, I was getting up and doing the work and getting the good grades and all of the stuff that I could do to the best of my ability. but I was also not going well. It's not perfect, so I don't want it, you know? Yeah, and

Megan:

you weren't, it seems to me, anyway, each of those decision points, you didn't throw everything out. It was like, okay, maybe there's a different way to get to where I want to, and then you would learn something and that might change your path as you learned. But you hadn't completely abandoned the original idea or concept as you were doing that learning because that path could have still brought you back if you still wanted to, you know, primary school kids.

Rachel:

Yeah, I could have gotten to the end of any of those. Slightly differing paths and gone. I don't actually like working with the children. I want to go back to animals or oh, I actually don't like working with secondary school children. I want to go back to primary. But that's just not what ended up happening. And I like all of it. And to be honest. Yeah, with the secondary school kids, one of the things I learned with them is I really liked working with kids from either lower socioeconomic backgrounds or children who need additional support. I learned that I really enjoyed working with those children. They were fun and complex, but they're just very interesting and no matter how irritating children can be, because all children can be irritating, they're kids. And I just cannot, I don't have the ability inside of me to be annoyed at a child. because they're a child and their literal entire job is to be annoying. No matter what they're like, what their personality is. So it was just good fun. So I finished that year out. And obviously I've worked in a school for a full year at that point. So I was well placed to go and do a teaching course, my PGCE which with at the time was Institute of Education who during my year actually merged with UCL. So I started out at the Institute of Education and ended my year at UCL, which was interesting. But it was, it's a very good. It's a very good course. And I had a great time. I chose to do math. My only two subjects I would have wanted to do would have been maths or history. And unfortunately, I'm a little bit too dyslexic, I think, to be super confident with history. Maths is a considerably easier for my very dyslexic brain. And then, I learned something. Even more interesting about myself when I was a teacher, I always obviously knew I loved children, but I learned that there is a very large difference, between being good at a subject and being good at teaching. And a lot of people, yeah, so a lot of people think you have to be both. They think you either need to be good at your subject or you need to be good at your subject and good at teaching. And obviously, to a degree, you have to be good at your subject. But you do not have to be the best in the room to be the best teacher in the room. And I think I learned that in a very aggressive way with a year, a very, very smart year 10 girl. Who ran rings around, she was my first year of teaching, my absolute first year of teaching. And I was humbled in every which way possible by this girl. And bless her soul, she just was. absolute genius, genius girl. And there was no way I had to just accept, there was no way that this, I was ever going to be better at maths than this girl. But there was also no way she was going to be better at teaching than me. And she needed a coach, she needed a person to guide her. And I had to bring my ego out of the room and allow her to be better than me. But allow me myself to then Accept that and guide her and that was a really nice moment. For me understanding myself and understanding that Teaching is a transferable skill when you have it Anything and you know we had people who were good at their subjects and they would just be infuriating sometimes to watch as a teacher because you're just like These kids aren't understanding you because you're not breaking it down. You're not teaching them. You're just spouting your knowledge at them. Yeah, And that was quite frustrating to watch. And they would look at me and think, God, you can't teach year 13, or whatever. I could teach year 13, because you don't have that, you didn't do maths at university. You don't have a first in economics. I got a 2. 1 in zoology, which is like 30 to 40 percent maths. And I'm just thinking, yes, I can, because I can teach. And it was a wonderful moment for me, because I needed that. After COVID, I needed to know that was a skill I had, because it's really helped me since, since leaving teaching. It's really helped ground me. I

Megan:

mean that's good. And I think just from that perspective of understanding our skills as skills, It's interesting because you're right. When people look at teaching, they think you need to be Both an expert in the subject and a good teacher, ideally both, as you said, but definitely an expert in the subject. But when you look at, say, sports, even professional sports, a lot of coaches and managers have never played professionally themselves. They would have played, of course, but they never played professionally. But that's not a criteria for a football manager. So why is it a criteria for a teacher? You're looking for someone who's the best teacher. They need the knowledge and the fundamentals, of course, but they don't need to be the smartest in the room, the most expert at the subject. So I think that's interesting that we have that sort of need and pressure on teachers, but then also that you were able to break that out. And Learn that actually it's a skill and therefore it's transferable. It's something a you can learn a better at, but you can take it other places. It's not just tied to maths.

Rachel:

Yeah, I had a very good. Head of Maths, so he was my manager. And again, it's the same with managers. People get very proficient in their field, but they get promoted to manager, and they are not proficient managers because the managerial role is incredibly different to just being good at what your original job was. And that's why we have so many bad managers, because it's not about them being bad people. It's just not the role for them. And I was very fortunate. I've had a string of some, difficult heads of maths In my time there. And then I was very fortunate that we had one guy for two years who was a very good manager as well as a good maths teacher. And he focused a lot on making our teaching more proficient, not just making our maths more proficient. skills, more proficient, obviously a little bit of both, but really focused on collaborative teaching, understanding different teaching techniques and understanding different ways that children absorb information and just seeing the whole thing very holistically. So that was great. It was great to have that kind of manager. And then I was his deputy head of maths at the time and he did a great job of really trying to develop my managerial skills personally as well, sending me to every course he could find that was to do with managing people and set me up into really good stead. So when he left, I took over his mantle and became head of maths in my last year of teaching. And. Again, it is a very different skill even still from just being a teacher, obviously managerial roles have a form of mentorship roles within them. If you're a good manager, you really should be looking at some form of mentoring to your team which is effectively the same as teaching. You are a coach at that point. And. It's it was really useful because that was going to be, at the time, didn't know it when I first started that year, but that was going to be my last year of teaching, last year in a school. But the skills I learned in the kind of year prior in that year have been so valuable. Not just in my career, but just in my day to day relationships as well. There's something to be said about when you're managing a team of people, understanding that everybody is different and everybody has. There are different skill sets and we like to talk about weaknesses and strengths as if weaknesses are bad, but We can't literally be strong at every single thing in the world. We collapse So it's not about not having weaknesses it's about understanding what your weaknesses are and being able to work either around them or develop a team where those weaknesses are being supported by other members and Yeah. And taking that into my, just into my relationship with my husband, how are both of us going to understand what our personal weaknesses are so that I can support him and he can support me when those situations arise that I'm not actually as proficient as he is. And vice versa is, it's great. Like we don't I just try and get out of my head, all of this structure of it's a manager job. And if you're just in that, and there's the skills for that, and then that's it. You move to a different job and it's gone. We're all just people with skillsets and we need to learn how to apply them to a bazillion different things. And that's really cool. It's been really good fun to learn that.

Megan:

That's amazing. And you said that was your last year of teaching and of course we met in your wine shop. So what was the journey from teaching to wine shop?

Rachel:

Well, the joke is you know the teaching drove me to drink. So I just cut out the middle man, it was never the children. I never wanted to leave the kids ever. Unfortunately don't want to bring too much politics into it and we've only had a labor government for now, half a year but we'd been under the Tories for a very long time and the school system was. It still is very broken. And I got very ill, unfortunately. I collapsed in the office and had to be sent to the hospital in an ambulance. And they said, there's, the only thing we can think of it could be is stress. that we can only think it's stress related. And I have learned that I do have, personally, I have very physical reactions to stress. But that is extreme, so anytime that's ever happened to me. I then also got laryngitis and sinusitis at the same time, only two months later. Yeah, so it was a lot. I was not well at all. My levels of stress was so bad that when holidays came around, I was just ill. Days and days of the cortisol withdrawal would hit. And it was really not healthy and my aunt has been a teacher for a very long time in Australia working with very low socioeconomic schools, very similar situation possibly, even worse, to be honest, than a in a city, London, and she was recognizing the signs of severe burnout. To the point of just genuinely being very ill all the time. And she said, you need to take a, you need to take a break. You need to take a year out. So I, it was a difficult decision. It took me a long time to come to terms with it. It took me, even from when I decided actually, probably it's the right thing to do. It still took me almost two months to hand in my notice. And in teaching, a lot of people don't realize that you hand your notice in very early in the year, especially if you're ahead of subject because they're difficult positions to fill. And you will see out the whole year but you've handed your notice in quite early. So I handed my notice in late January and then we spent the February trying to hire my replacement and managed to do I was. Always gonna work until the end of August. Mm-hmm And then in 26th of March, the schools closed. COVID for the pivot. Boris Johnson closed the schools 26th of March. A date that will forever be in my brain. That was the date my school closed anyway. we should have closed earlier. Because we didn't have enough staff in the school to actually have the children come into school, so we had to only allow. Year 11, year 13, and it was one of the younger year groups, possibly year 7 to come in one day and then the other year groups to come in the next day. So we were doing only half school because we only had half the teachers. So really, really bad. And I've been sent home early anyway because I had asthma. So, that was my last days, my last week, at that school for a long time. And obviously, we all were taking bets when the schools would be open, we're just going to get a long Easter holiday, or we'll all be back in September. Gosh, this is going to be an interesting little break. And of course, no one really understood what was going to be happening. No one had any idea how long it was going to be. No. It was so interesting. I remember just sitting in the staff room being like, I wonder if they're just going to Close two weeks before Easter and two weeks after Easter and we'll have a six week Easter break. How naive we were. But I'd yeah, I plan to take a sabbatical year and go traveling, do all the things that A lot of people I've known have done in their younger years that I haven't done. Travel around Asia, continent, I've still never been to. Because obviously it didn't happen.

Megan:

Yeah, COVID kind of ruined those plans.

Rachel:

Unfortunately, COVID ruined a lot of worse things for a lot of people. So I, tend to not dwell it too much. I don't think that my COVID experience was one of the bad ones in all honesty. But yeah, my traveling plans all got canceled. And I was a little bit unsure of what was going on, my boyfriend at the time, his father owned a hotel, restaurant, wine bar in the center of France, in the Auvergne region of France, very central, very I say isolated as much as you know about it. European country ever is, but it's the nearest town, nearest city was an hour and a half drive away. So it was quite rural up in the mountains and it was somewhere we would regularly go. And he'd gone and worked there for the first year that his father opened it in our early twenties. And I'd been out there quite a lot and I'd always help in the wine bar and always help and chat with all the different winemakers and all, et cetera. So when. Covid hit. I, collectively probably worked in that place for almost half a year, maybe more, over the kind of six or seven years that we've been going. So we thought, let's just go. Let's go. In one of the periods where suddenly you were allowed to go to France, we packed our bags and went. And it was really nice to be out of the country. We were there for three months and we worked. With a couple who were staying very close to the hotel, who were trying to make their own wine the first time or first or second time. Which was great. We just helped out. We were just a bit of free labour for them. Eight hour trips down south in a big van to bend our backs picking grapes at five in the morning to travel back eight hours to arrive at midnight and walk up and down a hill carting 300 boxes of 15 kgs worth of grapes into vats that we then pummeled with our own feet while drinking from glasses of wine. It was very, um, movie. Great fun, great fun. I enjoyed it. Tried my hand in making some of my own wine. Wouldn't say it was good. It was drinkable. That was about the best pass I'd give it. But it was fun. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the wine trade. I learned it was super good fun. I learned things I didn't enjoy. I've never been a very good person with Kind of the politics of all of this stuff and the cliquey nature of things I tend to just get quite confused, really, I guess is probably the correct word, is what I thought. I just sat back and I'm just like, I don't really know what's going on. I think I'm a little bit too much of an open book for all of that kind of stuff. But it was good fun, and at the end of that we had one day to get out, when the French government decided to close France down completely, due to Covid. We had technically we were supposed to have 48 hours, but they just cancelled all the trains, so I was

Megan:

Made that quite difficult.

Rachel:

I was like, it can't be 48 hours if there's literally no way of getting anywhere. Yeah. So we had 24 hours to get out of the country. So we got out I bought one bottle of wine with me that I'd made one of my bottles of wine made at the rust. I've never seen since. And I got back and, just a little, a bit of a loss of what to do. The relationship ended. I knew I wasn't going to be going back to teaching. At that point, really, I was just not ready for it. I'd only been gone for three or four months anyway. And I'd had to go through the whole COVID thing of giving children their results. As head of maths, I was It was one of the first people in charge of giving GCSE and A level results to these children. And it was very heartbreakingly difficult. I have to say a lot of people were very angry with schools, a lot of children and parents are very angry with schools, but there was just nothing to be done and it was awful. I just didn't want to go back into that situation and I'd probably have to go back in anyway at quite a severe demotion, it was going to be hard for me to find a head of maths job again. Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought, I'm not ready to go back. And I'd really enjoyed working with the wine. So I started doing some wine qualifications. I went through the West London Wine School, which I will always take any opportunity to shout out. Jimmy Smith is an exceptional educator and if anybody's looking to do any kind of wine qualifications, that would be where I did them, and that would be my personal recommendation. Other wine educators are available. But I really enjoyed it. And in February of 2022, 22. 21. February 2021, my dad said, can you come around? I want to talk to you. And I said yes, which is always kind of a terrifying thing when your parents are like, they never, they never just tell you what's up, do they? It's always can you call me? And you're like, what's going on? Who's died? And they're No, I just wanted to see what's going on. Stop doing that. Millennials don't enjoy that. But, I get over there and my, my dad and my stepmom basically had been chatting and had my stepmom had been like, why don't you and Rachel. Look at doing something. She's got this Period in her life now where she's a little bit up in the air and my dad wanted to start a new business He's a businessman at heart. He is probably the most classic example of a workaholic And he loves it absolutely loves it he was just looking for it a new adventure that was a bit different because he's always been In the kind of B2B tech world. So he was looking for something different. And he posed the idea to me, would you open a wine store with me? And I'd learn a lot when I'd been working in With this, all this wine that while I was very interested in the ins and out of wine, I was much more interested in explaining it to people and talking to them about it. And again, it just goes to that's my personality. That's where my skillset lies. That goes into the teaching aspect. Of what I enjoy doing. I enjoy talking to people and helping them discover and learn. And in this situation, it was going to be if I'm going to work in the wine world, I need to work on that side of it. I said, yeah, that sounds great, but I need to have that educational vein. It's important to me. So we were looking to understand what type of wine store we could open up. And I said to him, and I remember sitting at his, kitchen table and saying, Look, I live in Hackney. If I walk out of my house within 15 minutes in any direction that I choose to go, I'm hitting a European natural wine shop or bar. Yeah, there's a million of them. I mean, it's insane. And I was like, I just don't, if they were all bad, sure, but they're not. They're great. A lot of them are amazing. I just don't want to be another one of those shops when they're doing them well already. We need to do something new, something that isn't being done and that's hard in a saturated wine market. So I have been fortunate enough that with my dad, I had gone to America when I was 21. And we'd gone around and done a little father daughter trip across, just under two weeks. And I'd actually, we'd gone to Napa So we both knew that American wine was good. We didn't know how good, but we knew at that point it was good. And I said, look, you like it because it's big, bold Cabernet Sauvignons. It's buttery, rich Chardonnays. That's your thing. But I'm a hipster hackney girl. I don't like that. I like orange wine, and I like pet nap, and I like chillable reds. I'm a, I'm Basic as the hipster gets, where is that for me if we're doing America? So I need to do some research and it did not take me long. In the first couple of hours of me searching, I found so much in America that is happening that is not just that, but more that is interesting and experimental and unique and As far from classic as you could ask, but it also very much seemed to be separate from the Stick it to the man vibe that I was getting from the French stuff. We don't want to be classic because we're edgy. the American stuff, it's not about being edgy. It's just about being experimental and trying and doing fun things. And I really loved that attitude. That attitude just sounds to me so well. And It was I think it was Brock Cellars and Hamerling Wines. They're based at urban wineries in San Francisco. They were literally some of the very first ones I found when I was doing my research back in 21. Where I was like, if these guys exist, we can do this. If just these two producers singularly exist, we can do this. Never mind the fact that there's a bazillion of them. So then I did my research to work out what was happening in the American wine scene in the UK, and it was non existent. I mean, the best I found, other than Hedonism and Berry Brothers, which even with them, it's not a massive amount, and a lot of it's very expensive the best I found was over Thanksgiving, there was one shop that was selling six different American wines, and I was wow, that's so many. Many didn't sell any, and if they did, it was one or two, and they were hidden in the side.

Megan:

Being from North America amongst our friends those of us who are also from North America, if we find a good California wine in the UK, there is text about it because it has been really hard to find things we like that aren't crazy expensive at the same time.

Rachel:

Yes. Yes, because that was the other problem. So the two major stereotypes. That I found that were coming out were that, like I said, the classic Big Bowl Butter, the style stereotypes it's stuff that, your grandparents like and that's it. And also, it's the stuff that your grandparents can afford and no one else, expensive. Or it's the opposite. It's right down in the pits in the supermarket and it's. More expensive than the shits left in France, and not as good. And I was like, this is just not what American wine is. It didn't take a lot of research for me to understand that is not what true American wine is.

Megan:

It's

Rachel:

just what the UK consumer is exposed to. So of course, you can only make your decisions and assumptions and understandings from what you are exposed to. So Yeah. So it was just about changing that. It was, that was the only thing. And that was it. That was, I was hooked immediately because that is my education. For me, I've always worked with younger people and I absolutely love bringing in people in their twenties, early thirties, and to get them in and understanding about another realm of wine. I love all wine. I love Portuguese wine. I love American wine. I love Australian wine. I love it all. It's fine. Wine is wine. Good wine is good wine. But the thing about American wine is it needed a bit of help in the UK. It needed a teacher. I needed a teacher. I needed a teacher, a coach a mentor and a cheerleader. and that's what we just hope to be. And at first it was just the general challenges of getting a business off the ground understanding stock, understanding the UK consumer preferences. But since kind of all of those hurdles, we're just under two and a half years old now in the actual shop with a bit of extra time if you think online. And we've moved into that stage now where that kind of educational point and the events that we are putting on are our key, are our lifeblood effectively, and it's what gives me joy, and it's just built on everything I've learned about myself throughout that career journey. And coming to accept that effectively, I have a skill set that I can put into place in many different roles and this is just the way I'm doing it. And if my skill set wasn't, in my passion for teaching, my shop manager, Rhiannon, her passion is the science and her passion is the creation. She is equally as important and valuable in the business because that's where she brings that passion into. And she's got an incredible technical mind, and the passion for learning about it. She's studying her masters in winemaking, she's really, really, really incredible at that. And it's amazing to have her there and see her do that and have her completely different skill sets to me in the business, because that's what. We're talking about that's about me having my skill sets and coming forward with those and her having hers. And then we've got our resident Gen Z, as I like to call them who's bringing in a completely different skill set with their incredible marketing. They're an incredible, incredibly personable person, our regulars. Come in and they say to me, Oh, I had a great conversation with they really helped me understand what I should be taking home. They were so patient and really just, and that's, that's so important to our business is about allowing anybody to come in, no matter your knowledge, no matter your bank balance and no matter your age or gender and to feel so included in that space and so accepted in that space. And that is Probably one of the things I'm the most proud of for our team in general and our business is that I do get a lot of feedback from people saying, I really enjoyed being in the space. And that's so important to us. It's a very male dominated, older male dominated world, but it's changing. And the younger generation, especially since COVID, are really changing that. And to be part of that and to help foster that is such a privilege. Such a privilege. I love it. And it's the same with the kids. When I was teaching, that's where I get my passion from. That's where I feel my sense of purpose from. When I was teaching with the kids, it's all good and teaching maths. But every single lunch, I had a classroom full of children, just In there either being mentored or being supported to having a space to talk. Yeah. Having a space that they felt they could be relaxed. Mm-hmm And that was always so important to me. And that's just the same thing to bring through into this business, having a space where people feel like they can relax and they're not gonna be judged and they're, they can just be themselves. Yeah. And I think that's pretty

Megan:

cool. Been in your shop several times. That is definitely the feeling. I'm not a wine expert. I just like wine. So to have a place where you can go ask a lot of questions and it doesn't feel intimidating and everyone, when you come in are so warm and welcoming. And then having also gone to your wine, one of your wine tastings, like your passion does come through. And I think what you were saying with the three of you in the business, those are like. The puzzle pieces that come together and to get businessy like create your USP and not only as being, specializing in the American wines. But that kind of environment is unique, as you said, it's changing, but, today it is still pretty unique to have that kind of warm, welcoming place where you can ask all those questions. Like I find going into most wine shops quite intimidating and there sometimes can be a bit of, snobbery of Oh you don't. don't know. And I'm like, I don't, that's why I'm here. But it's hard to ask those questions sometimes.

Rachel:

Yeah, it is. And I think the thing is, we're so used to the wine world being quite exclusive and quite purposefully so for a long time. There's a lot of history around it. A lot of history. It literally starts with Pinot Noir and Gamay. Being separate grapes for separate types of people, Gamay wasn't allowed to be grown in certain areas because it was the poor person's grape this is literally starts back from history, and you come in and it's just, if we're looking at expanding the industry, we have to go with the times and the times are all about inclusivity. And. We need to understand that bringing younger people in and bringing people from different types of backgrounds in is only going to be beneficial to everybody involved. I never want to exclude a single person, and that includes old snobby white guys. If they come into my shop, they're just as included as anybody else. It's not about, replacing people. It's just about inviting more people. There's always more room. It's not, a zero sum game. And I think that's the kind of really nice thing. The wine industry, I've noticed that, there's always going to be difficult people everywhere in the world, no matter what you're in. In every

Megan:

industry that, yeah, exists.

Rachel:

Right. And luckily with the wine world, one thing I have found is that because people are passionate about wine, generally in

Megan:

there,

Rachel:

there is a lot less of that I've found. There's always going to be some, but there's a lot less. People are just so excited that new people enjoy wine. Yeah. That's really nice. And it is changing even just three years ago when I was going to trade tastings, I was one of the only women and I definitely didn't see many people of color. Now there is much more women and a few more people of color. That is still a difficult area in the wine world. It is very focused on just white people. And that will be a product of upbringing and a product of historical familial, like you, if you. Born into a family that just knows a lot about wine. It doesn't matter what you do You're gonna grow up knowing a lot about wine. Yeah, and that's just a historic thing, but it's still breaking down It's still changing and that's lovely to see and even in just in three years there's been a huge change and now I go to wine tastings in the trade and it's a different scene to what it was three years ago, which is awesome.

Megan:

Sounds like a very exciting time to be in the industry.

Rachel:

Yes, I'd say so. Although, a lot of tax problems at the moment.

Megan:

But at least they're hitting everybody, not just America. Well, there's always the

Rachel:

less fun side of things. That always exists. Yes. We don't like tax, obviously, we've got to be taxed.

Megan:

When you look back at this, winding journey with all these little pivots, are there kind of common threads or common things that upon reflection, you can see how they pull through. I think we touched on some of them, already, but, on reflection, what are those commonalities?

Rachel:

I

Megan:

think.

Rachel:

It's very hard when you're younger to picture your entire life as this big thing. And I remember, my aunt talking to me one time about Well, you know, that's just 10 years of your life. And like, when you're 21, you're like, Oh my God, that's half my life. Just, just 10 years of my life. What are you talking about? But I think. Just having that mindset of not being fixated on whether you are doing the right thing in that moment. Mm-hmm For this super long period of your life. Whether you are doing something that's interesting you in that moment. Yeah.

Megan:

And

Rachel:

allowing you to live your life and yeah. You might have to put extra work in, you might have to, not go out with your mates because you can't afford it that evening or something. As long as you've got your security and your safety sorted, as long as you are secure in that, looking forward and being like, look, this door opened to me, let's give it a go and see what I learn from it, and not being worried to say it's not going to work, so I can pivot. in a year. So give it, not one week unless there's something really wrong. Give it your best shot. But, if it isn't working, what is it that I can then take from that? And I remember with my teaching, one of the things I would do is I, you would always go into different teachers classrooms to watch them teach. And the first thing you think about is what are they doing brilliantly that I can take into my practice. Equally, as importantly, was what was it that doesn't work for me that they're doing? What, what is it that I'm learning from them that I wouldn't want to put into my practice? Because they're both super important things. And then taking that and then just honing and honing and honing. And I think one of the things that I've always benefited from is that. I was never fixated on choosing the correct thing and I was always very flexible and open to the opportunities that were put in front of me. And I remember, when I was trying to talk to my A level students about what they were going to do at university and they were so terrified of picking the wrong thing. And I was just like, look, pick something you're excited about doing, go and do it. And then you can decide what you're going to do afterwards, you don't have to choose at the age of 17 what you're going to be doing for the next 50 years, that's bonkers. You know, it's just not going to work either, life doesn't work that way. When I was 17 I thought I'd have Children by the time I was 24. I was like, you just don't understand life. You can't, you just don't. And you can't, and schools and parents put a lot of pressure on you when you're so young. And actually it's just about, you need pressure. Because otherwise you're gonna sit on your arse in front of the sofa all day and you're gonna waste your life away, which we can't be doing. But, because then we don't have any doors open. It's not about getting it right or wrong. It's just about giving it your best shout at that time. And that's, I think really the thing that I am really grateful that I did a lot in my journey. But also just very reflective. Again, super grateful that at Liverpool I was given that therapy. I think it really helped me learn that reflective to have a reflective attitude on things. And again, City Year, there was, I had a lovely mentor at City Year, Chelsea, who I remember sitting down with me and being like, Rachel, we love you, but you interrupt people a lot. Um, you need to be less excited all the time. She was so gracious and kind with the way that she talked to me about it, that it made me realize that, it's not always a bad thing that That, a person has feedback for you. Sometimes it's just a way to, to work at home. And actually, she was like, you're great, you're passionate, you're really good fun. You're really bubbly, you chat loads. But sometimes you just gotta have a think about when you're doing that. And let other people chat as well. And I was like, ah, okay, yeah, that is a very good point. And it was just another moment where I had this person just help me down the road to discovery and reflect and be open. So just taking what people say is really helpful as well. It's been, I've been very privileged in my life to have a lot of key people have helped and supported me, but also I've been very open to allowing them to do so, which I think is important too. Yeah, that is important.

Megan:

And what you were saying about the pressure. Kids feel some of that we put, I think a lot of it, society and parents and schools put on them, but to pick the right thing, I agree. And it's one of the reasons, actually, I was inspired to do the podcast, similar conversations with cousins and friends of mine who are parents of. Like that's not actually how life works, do things that are interesting to you because you will put time into them and you will learn a lot and every experience you learn something from. So you learn what you like, you also learn what you don't like, which you had pointed out that's just as important to learn and then you can make the next decision and you're not locked into any decision forever. And the other thing from an education standpoint, when you're 17. You don't even know all the jobs that exist in the world. Thinking that you've planned out your life forever or you're going to do this degree and therefore it's going to be this job. You're a you could be potentially closing down opportunities because you are so narrow and you just don't know what all the things are. I love what you said about just, being open to the opportunities and then giving them a real shot. And then learning, what you don't like and keep going or you tweak and adjust as you go.

Rachel:

Yeah. And you, it's a super good point. We don't know all the jobs in when we were born, AI didn't exist. Exactly. So I don't know what kind of jobs will exist in 20 years time. Mm-hmm A lot of them we're in an incredibly fast paced, moving world. Yeah. And. To say, oh, it's really important to take into consideration people's cultural backgrounds, people's familial backgrounds, because that's going to have a huge impact in the way that you move throughout the world. If you've got a family structure and a cultural structure that is incredibly fixated on certain jobs, that is going to be part and parcel of your childhood and your adolescence, and that's going to shape who you want to be and where you want to go. Also, just taking into consideration, okay, yeah, that's my pressures, maybe that's where I'm being, channeled into going, maybe I'm being channeled into becoming a lawyer of certain because my parents want me to, fair play, okay, I'll do my best, I'll give my best shout, but actually, maybe there's going to be a million different jobs that even a person who trains to be a lawyer could be A lot of people will go into law school and then they'll go and do quite a lot of even better paying jobs that have never existed 10 years before. Because they have such an impressive degree. And lawyer, a lawyer degree is an incredibly impressive degree to get. It's a hard degree to get. It shows that you can put a lot of work in and you can get your head down and you can do it. So it's important to showcase to your employers that you can do that work. But it doesn't mean you have to go off and be a bog standard lawyer, there's still a million doors open to you, you've just got to understand what your transferable skills are and what part of that degree and what part of that job you like and therefore want to hone. There's so many different things you can still do with that. If I'm thinking with my, if I'm gonna have children hopefully in the next couple of years time, that would be lovely. I have not got a clue what jobs are going to be available to them in 20 years time. I haven't a clue. They don't exist. When I was born in 1991, my parents had no idea that and I could technically go and work in artificial intelligence. That doesn't feel like what my mind would be blown when my dad was born in the 60s. His parents weren't like, oh, he's going to go and he's going to be a tech businessman. Because that didn't exist. The internet didn't exist. Computers didn't exist. Well, maybe they did. Social media manager. There's You know, so many things that didn't exist and they're changing so

Megan:

much.

Rachel:

A 22 year old who's my social media manager, that didn't exist when I was born, and I employ somebody younger than me to do it. Yeah, yeah. It's just wild. Obviously we have to take a lot of these things in the context of people's lives. It's a very important, but even within those contacts, just understanding what it is that you're working within and what your remits are, there's always a way for you to hone your personal preferences within that. Even if you feel restricted, just having an open mind of thinking about what parts of any job you enjoy. If I was forced into being a lawyer. Probably not my favorite thing in the world, but I'd absolutely love being people focused and chatting with them. I'd absolutely love being able to problem solve. I love problem solving. So working, probably in quite a difficult one, but like family law, problem solving all over the place. That would probably be where I would end up going into, just based on what I've learned about myself, so I could do it. Because I know about myself, and I think that's the key.

Megan:

Yes, use all those experiences to reflect and learn about yourself, and then you will shape and tweak and find your niche, whether it's in a particular industry or you change industries. Those skills and that learning and reflection are so key. When you, again look back, is there a piece of advice you wish you could go back in time and give yourself?

Rachel:

There's always the classic, it's gonna be okay. I'm a highly anxious person, so I think just being able to tell myself it's all gonna be okay would be nice. I think personally the one piece of advice I'd give myself is probably not to just be so hard on myself. I think I had a very negative view on who I was as a person and I think one of the things I've tried to work very hard on in my early thirties has been to accept who I am. Always with working on yourself, not about, I'm a dick and I'm okay, that's fine. Like, you know, it's always about working on yourself and honing yourself, but accepting Who you are as not being inherently a bad thing has been a difficult journey. And I think to be able to go back to my younger self and just go, You know what, you've got to be able to just like who you are and then work with that. I think that would have helped ease a lot of problems in my 20s. But I think that's quite a common thing, especially for women. Generally, for all of us really so not the most interesting piece of advice, but true.

Megan:

But it is really valuable because accepting your starting point allows you to then grow instead of fighting against it all the time, which is in a way a distraction. Yes, you will improve by fighting against it. Not very much and it's painful and often quite unhappy versus this is where I am today and that's fine, but I want to continue to be better and not just be a journey and accepting it as a journey is a happier way to approach it.

Rachel:

Realistically, if you are constantly. Being quite negative to your own personal self, even if it's just internally people pick up on that people feel that And it's really hard for you to have relationships with other people Where they're being they're growing and being built on when you can't even trust yourself and you can't even almost love yourself and I don't agree, if you don't love yourself, no one can love you I don't agree with that. I think that's very detrimental actually as a sentence, but if you are putting yourself down, you, it's harder for you to accept the love that other people give you and trust that it's real. And that then can really become very detrimental in all aspects of your life. If you're not trusting the positive things that people say about you, how can you grow with them? You know? So I think just being able to. Appreciate the good things about yourself, and appreciate that you do have skills will really help you actually lean on them and trust where people are like, God, you were great at that. Oh, that was really awesome. And you'd be like, Yeah, yeah, I was quite good at that. Let's do that again. Let's focus on that. And I'll go that way.

Megan:

Yeah, and you think when people are complimenting you, they're putting it on for whatever reason, it. People

Rachel:

just don't do that. No, people do not get compliments for no reason. Like we, we should all be complimenting each other more, not less. Nobody is telling you you're good at something when you're not, nobody's doing that if they don't mean it. So accept them. Accept it in, your life will be easier and you'll be happier.

Megan:

Yeah. Agreed. It is great advice. And I think sometimes you have to go through the hard journey of learning it the hard way, but it is also just good to remind ourselves at that at every point in the journey, because it, we have bad days. And so you in those bad days sometimes can slip back into that viewpoint. So yeah, it's great advice.

Rachel:

I love having a spicy brain. It's what we call it at work. We're having a spicy day. But it's okay because we're all a little like that. We accept it and it's one of us texts, we're having a spicy day. We know what it means, we know how to support each other, and nobody's oh for God's sake, they're just having another day where they're just gonna be, like it's not, and that's how you think. You think, oh God, they're gonna hate me because I'm just having an off day that's really hard. That's not the case, like if you're open and honest, and I found the more I'm open and honest about things I find difficult, the more people are so receptive to being supportive and helpful. And way more people have that than you think. People do

Megan:

want to help and I love that you have a shorthand for it because we all have those days and it's just such an easy way to, you don't need to get into a big explanation, but it's just this is where I'm at. Here's the shorthand that we all understand and we all use and so we'll support each other. I love that. This was amazing. Thank you so much.

Rachel:

It was great fun. You're lovely to talk to. Oh,

Megan:

I think your journey is just so fascinating and cool and exactly what I was hoping to get out of the podcast in terms of it doesn't matter where you end up, but there are all these little decisions you make along the way. And it's so much about the learning and then taking those skills forward and letting go of the things, that don't work. Like we said at the very beginning, there's always things you have to do that you, don't enjoy, but it's, finding that path and making the decisions. Based on where you are today, what you've learned today, and then just being open to where they take you. I love that.

I was totally inspired by Rachel's journey and how she approached each stage along the way. It was so hard for me to narrow it down, but the three things that I took away from our conversation were, one, when it looks like the path is closed, you can find another way. Might take a little longer, but it can also open up new opportunities that you hadn't even considered. Rachel's journey into teaching is a great example of this. Number two, every experience is a valuable part of your journey. Rachel learned that being a vet wasn't for her, but that she loved animals, and then learned that she loved teaching. And even when the profession ultimately burned her out, she was crystal clear that she needed to incorporate the element of teaching and coaching into the wine shop. And third, you don't have to be the smartest in the room to be a great coach, manager, or mentor. Being a leader requires its own skills and capabilities. Rachel's advice to her younger self applies. No matter your age. Find a way to like who you are today as a starting point, and then you can work with that. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.