The Unexpected Career Podcast

Jennifer: From Entertainment Dreams to Diversity and Inclusion Leader

• Megan Dunford • Season 3 • Episode 5

Share episode

S3E5: Jennifer had dreams of a career in the arts when she was young, but with a desire for a more stable life she started her career in recruitment and has now found her passion as a leader in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theunexpectedcareer/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@unexpectedcareer?_t=8sery0sUV73&_r=1
Webpage: https://theunexpectedcareerpodcast.buzzsprout.com

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people, about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. My guest today is Jennifer, who had dreams of working in the entertainment industry when she was young, and ultimately found a way to bring her creativity into the corporate world as a diversity and inclusion leader.

Megan:

Hi, Megan. Hello. How are you? Good, thanks. How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. Thank you so much for joining and, uh, participating in the podcast. I really appreciate it and I'm excited to get into your story and especially kind of like with everything going on in the world, I think mm-hmm. Your journey is really interesting and really important and a good reminder of how important DEI is. And we'll get into to that in a bit. But, um, first of all, thank you for joining.

Jen:

Thank you for having me. I'm really glad to be here.

Megan:

Cool. I always like to start the conversation right from the beginning of when you were small when you were a little girl, did you have an idea of what you thought you wanted to be when you grew up?

Jen:

Yeah, so when I was younger I always really wanted to do something creative as a job. So I'd always sort of lean towards thinking it would be something maybe in the entertainment industry, you know, maybe something a little bit glamorous. I was involved in a lot of performing arts growing up. I always really enjoyed writing and like when it came to choosing subjects at school, I picked things like music and drama and English. But at the same time, I also mixed it in with things like. Biology and chemistry and physics and psychology. So, a real kind of mix. But I don't remember ever thinking I would end up in a corporate job when I was younger. I just don't think that there was anything that I knew of. You know, when I was growing up that I felt particularly drawn to. Yeah. So I think it was mainly kind of based at, you know, on my interests and things that I liked to do, and that's kind of where I thought maybe I would end up. But yeah, the corporate world never really was massively on the radar to start with.

Megan:

It's funny because, well, first of all, I love that you kind of did a little bit of everything. So, a little there's a lot of and I don't even know if this like terminology is true, but that kind of left brainin right brain, but you were kind of covering all your bases. Yeah. Which is really cool. And a lot of people I've spoken to. Think about, oh, I'll do business just'cause like, that's what you see kind of on tv. Mm-hmm. And not even knowing the jobs, but it's interesting that that wasn't on your radar when you were younger. So as you were getting ready to consider schooling or what was next, as you're coming to the kind of end of secondary school mm-hmm. did you decide to go to university? And if you did, what did you decide to take and how did you make that choice?'cause you were doing so many different things.

Jen:

I actually completed all of my schooling in the uk from primary school age and then went on to university and I studied, a Bachelor of Science in Psychology in the end. So it was really heavy on the statistics, not really my strength. But I've always had an interest in understanding how people's minds work. Why we do what we do and, you know, what can happen when things go wrong. And I've always been deeply entru in the workings of, the human mind and the human brain. And obviously I specialize in diversity and inclusion now. and it draws on a lot of the points that I had interest in being younger and of psychology, of course, does. Does link into that. But it wasn't exactly a clear cut decision. So when I came to choosing that subject for university, I didn't have a clear plan of what I wanted to do. So I initially picked something I enjoyed, and I initially studied creative writing. But then when I started that course, I had this moment where I realized that. Actually, I wanted to study something that maybe would be more likely to lead to a job with more financial stability early on. Mm-hmm. even though I didn't know what that job would be at that stage, so I kind of just thought, I mean, I really enjoy writing, but do I wanna be a struggling writer of, is that really, where I feel is my comfort zone? am I willing to kind of go down that route? And I really wanted something with more stability. early on, so I guess, you know, with this, as you grow up, don't you, you go through different stages, you see different parts of life, you think, what do I want? You know, what am I willing to try? What am I not willing to try? And I figured then that maybe a science-based degree would help me with that. So that's when I switched over to the Bachelor of Science in psychology. And as I said, it was something that I already enjoyed. So, it worked really well. And then when I finished university, I still wasn't clear on what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I wanted to move to London, and I wanted to have a career with, decent earning potential because that financial independence, was really important to me. So then I started searching around and thinking like, gosh, you know, what can I do? And like, you said about seeing things on tv, I was really grasping at straws a little bit and I was like, oh, maybe being a lawyer would be a good idea. So then I went on and did a graduate diploma in law. After that, which was a year long course. but even before I started that I knew I wasn't gonna be a lawyer. I knew it wasn't gonna be right for me, but I went ahead anyway. I kind of made the commitment and that decision actually ended up influencing my career in other ways down the road.

Megan:

That's amazing. I like how, just in your journey, you have in the education space even just made some different decisions and taken that moment to pause and, you started something, the creative writing, it's like actually this maybe isn't gonna lead to the kind of life I want. And being a writer I think is, there's lots of different ways to be a writer. And you can do that as. A part of your life without it being your whole life. Mm-hmm. and so interesting that, you made that decision of okay, maybe I'll go more science based, but still in an area that interests you. But then on the other hand, when you decided to go and get your, graduate diploma in law, even though you were at that point, maybe a little bit more clear, like maybe this isn't, being a lawyer is maybe not for me. You decided to stick with it then, I think that's really interesting. So if you kind of knew going into the diploma that being a lawyer was maybe not the right fit for you, what did you do after, what was your first job after you finished that course?

Jen:

Yeah, when I finished that course, and I think the primary objective was to move to London, so, mm-hmm. I got my first job in London. At a recruitment agency, a global recruitment agency. And I think that getting into recruitment is it's, I think it's an in an industry that some people fall into. Mm-hmm. if they're not entirely sure of what they want to do. So for others. You know, it's a conscious choice as it can be a lucrative career, and for some people they feel, you know, the sales environment really suits them and they really enjoy that. But I do think some people go into it and then go on to other things. Which I've seen quite a few people do. I joined the graduate scheme and because of the fact that I just completed the graduate diploma in law they offered me a job in their legal sector team. And I've. Ended up working in law firms ever since. You never know how these certain choices will end up influencing the trajectory of your career. But it's worked out well for me. I mean, I know for some people they don't enjoy that type of environment. Mm-hmm. And it isn't. For everybody. But I actually found that it played to a lot of my strengths and I have really enjoyed working in that culture and that dynamic. But in terms of my time with the recruitment agency, I did enjoy it at the beginning. You know, I met my husband there and I've made some good friends, but I quickly realized that being driven by financial targets and, that sales environment, it didn't play to my strengths or my values in that way. And, I realized that I needed to feel something else to be motivated and fulfilled. You know, I wanted to do something that connected with me personally. I wanted to feel like I was making a difference at something. And I guess this is all part of the journey, right? You know, as I was saying, you figure it out as you go along. Some people are really lucky and they know exactly what they wanna do, from a very early age, and they got a clear plan and they know what they gotta do to get there. And for other people, it is a journey. So. After a few years, I, made a decision to move to an in-house, recruitment role at a law firm. So just to try something new so I, to take the experience that I had gained and then to use it in a different environment.

Megan:

That's cool.'cause it's taking the parts you liked. Forward and leaving behind some of the parts that were maybe not the best fit So when you're in a recruitment agency it's a lot more sales and sales target. versus being in-house is a lot more about the people and the strategy and getting the right people in to support the business or the law firm. So, yeah, I think that's really really cool. And as you said, it is a journey. You learn things as you go and then you make the next decision based on that and take some things forward and leave some things behind. Tell me a little bit more about what you're doing. Now and what was the journey to get to that? Because I think what you're doing now is really cool. So love to hear the journey that, Got you to that.

Jen:

Yeah, so when I moved into the, the in-house recruitment role it was with the intention of eventually moving into a more kind of generalist HR business partner type of position. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I was very upfront about that when I interviewed with the firm and they were very happy to support me with that, which was great. So I already had to change it in direction, on the cards there. And I just felt like I needed to do something more people centric, rather than something that was focused on things like the revenue targets, like I've talked about. And, you know, feeling like I was in competition with my other colleagues. I needed that more, people centered type of role. But then after trying the HR business partner role, it wasn't quite right for me either. I, I had a good relationship with, with my employer and I spoke to them about it and. They asked me if I wanted to maybe go back into the recruitment based role, but then with 50% of that role being focused on diversity and inclusion, and it was honestly like a light bulb went off in my head. this was back in 2016. Mm-hmm. So the landscape of diversity and inclusion in the workplace, and it was very different to what it is today. Yeah. It was very

Megan:

early kind of, oh yeah. In conversation and as even a. A priority for businesses, people weren't hardly even talking about it then. Yeah.

Jen:

Exactly like I wasn't seeing anyone really talking about it very much at all. You know, I'd never seen a DNI role exist anywhere. I didn't even know that this could be a job. I'd never seen such a job advertised. And also, historically at that firm, and I think it was the case for a lot of companies at that time. A DNI type role was sort of a Bolton to an actual day job, so it was kind of at the side of the desk if you had some time to do it, someone might do a little bit of work in this space. So at my firm, it, it was similar to that. One of the HR managers had it on their sort of side of the desk. So I'd had some exposure to what it entailed from that but nothing, really to understand, how it would, be a day-to-day role. But it would've been a first for them too, you know, like I said, it was a bolt onto another role in that firm at the time. They'd never had someone have, DNI in their job description or in their job title or anything like that. So it was kind of us a little bit in it together, you know, seeing how that was gonna turn out, but. You know, it, it really felt for me that after searching for, many years,'cause I started working in 2010 and this was 2016. I've been searching for a long time to find my place in the corporate world. And it finally felt like a great fit. I. And like I said, there's still lots of unknowns. But it felt like a great opportunity to do something that was people-centric, that was values-based and, something that could have a real positive impact on people's lives. So I took that role and that's where that part of my, career journey began. But I remember at the time. You know, I thought, right, I need to get out there and like there was an event going on or, you know, a conference around workplace culture or diversity inclusion. I made a conscious effort to go to those, so I would meet other people and I would get an understanding of what this could look like, and it was just, one of those experiences where I, I felt, that was my place. I was like, actually, this is where I'm gonna draw on those values, those skills that I have, and I'm gonna put it to good use in a corporate world where otherwise I don't really feel like I fit. So it was, it was a pretty exciting time.

Megan:

A good reminder of sometimes that light bulb moment or that, place that feels like the right role that can take time and, experience and, learning different things. But also that role didn't even exist before. So, even it's not like you could have been in university like, oh, I wanna do that, those roles. Just that, that didn't even exist. So it's another, I think it's a good reminder for everyone, of. You don't know what roles are gonna exist. So, and such a great opportunity to like create something and build something. So it was the first time they had someone who had it as part of their job description in your firm and so to be able to create that with them and really learn and design it must have been a really cool opportunity.

Jen:

Yeah, it was. And I think that is. That sort of role where it's a bit of a blank page or you know, a very unexplored landscape. It's been a similar theme to a lot of roles that I've taken on and I think actually. Moving into that firm in the first place in a recruitment focus role. That was another example of a brand new role that they, no one had ever been in that before. They basically just wrote the job description from nothing really. It was brand new. Historically, that responsibility had been spread out amongst other people in the team. So yeah, it is something that when I look back on my career, I've done a lot of that. So I do actually think. Doing that in-house recruitment role straight, of moving from agency really set me up for just having that brand new role. Yeah. That no one's been in before. And it creates a lot of opportunity to shape the role, and the potential to have impact early on. And it does come with a lot of uncertainty and that might not be right for everybody. So I have taken a lot of chances and made some moves to follow opportunities that don't also, have that clear path in front of them. But for me, that was really part of the appeal. In a lot of my roles, there's been lots of opportunity to implement new processes. There's been opportunities for improvement and like new ways of doing things. And even if it's not immediately obvious, I'll usually find something that I think, could be done differently. So again, it was just something that, a strength that I had that I didn't even realize because it had never really been tested before. Mm-hmm. So it really did create that opportunity to really try new things and do something that, would challenge people's perceptions. It would get people thinking in a different way. And that was a really exciting time, and there's a lot of great areas, that, that come with this type of work. I work in a lot of gray areas, you know, I can manage ambiguity. Mm-hmm. But there are also. Aspects of a role in diversity and inclusion where, you can create really clear processes and really clear potential to yield tangible results. And I'm drawn to that also. And I think that's one of the interesting things to think about how the landscape of diversity and inclusion has evolved. Over the years that I've been in it there has been a lot of focus on. That outward facing, you know, events and campaigns and, there was a big piece around awareness raising for that. But where I feel the really important work comes and what I tend to focus on is that tangible program. You know the things behind the scenes, the policies, the processes, the responsibility, the accountability within the business. Yeah. And thinking about how all of this can positively impact the success of an organization. So that's always something that I've kept central to what I do and the approach that I take.

Megan:

So really focused on the impact rather than the perception or the PR or mm-hmm. Which there's obviously a place for, but it's definitely about trying to make a tangible change which is not easy at all. People get very comfortable, of course, in the way they do things. And then to, on top of it, be starting with a blank page for a lot of people that would be very overwhelming. I mean, just to use a writing reference of when you sit down to write something and it's a blank page, it can be really hard to start. So to create a role that way for a lot of people would be really overwhelming. But that's something that you have created. And then on top of it, been really focused on the impact and the tangible outcomes, even though actually the other stuff in some ways is easier, especially when you're starting with a blank page. That's amazing. So what are you doing now? Are you still with that firm? Have you are you still in DDNI?

Jen:

Yeah, so I've, uh, I've moved I've moved a couple of times since then. So I guess one other kind of theme throughout my career is when I get to a certain point, I know when I'm ready to either step up internally. Mm-hmm. Or if I need to move on to find the next thing. So if I find I'm treading water then I'm like, okay, well you know, what's next? You know? So if you get into a routine with things, I'm like, okay, well that's great. We're maintaining what we've done and that's really important. But it's also how can we evolve even further? And that's, both within an organization and what the organization is committed to doing. But also, I guess for me personally, in my career development. From that initial role, then in the years, that followed I moved into another role, which was primarily recruitment focused at another law firm. But because I'd had that experience in d and i for my previous role, they gave that responsibility to me. Again, even though if it wasn't officially part of the role, when I started and when I interviewed for it. But I did tell them I had that experience when I joined. It was, the kind of momentum around d and I was, building, that was a kind of couple years later and they asked me if I wanted to launch it in their, for their London office. And of course I said yes. So again, and that now was even more from scratch than it was in the previous role. In the previous role. I did have someone, who had it on the side of their desk and what, they did have some kind of campaigns that they were running with, but this was really from the kind of grassroots level. I was in that role for about a year and again set up. Strategy a committee, held our first events got colleagues engaged, with network groups, like really starting it from that, that kind of origin level. And then I was like, right, actually having done that I really wanna focus on this a hundred percent now. And then, that after like a year or so with that, firm, I found a role which was completely focused on diversity and inclusion. That was, and then that was my first role where I totally focused on it. And I was with that firm then for about three years. And that was an interesting experience because they had a, a quite firmly established. Diversity inclusion program. I worked in a small team. You know, I had opportunities to work with other people and learn from others who had done the role before. Whereas obviously previously I was in standalone roles. You know, really driving it myself, and it was great to be able to learn from others. So that, was a great experience and I took a lot of skills from that which I've implemented in the role, which I'm in now. And that was another brand new role. So the role I'm in now I. I interviewed for, and it was again, I guess a bit of a risk going from, a established team where there was a lot of things that were already in place and already working and we were just keeping things going to, again, like another position where it would be, starting not from scratch, because they had been working on it strategically for some time, but again, they didn't have someone who was focused on it day to day. So that was that brand new role. But what I should have said in the first role that I got that was purely D and I focused at that time, you would see maybe one of those jobs come on the market every few months. So, there were like hardly any jobs, in diversity inclusion. I had to wait, for that job to come up and then work really, really hard to get that. By the time I left, it was 2021 and, 2020 brought a lot of change. And there was a, a marked increase in DNI activity from 2020 onwards. And there were kind of jobs all over the place. It almost seemed like there was like this explosion of jobs, but then that also had its challenges because you had to be able to decipher which organizations were hiring for diversity inclusion jobs because they really believed in it and they were strategically committed, or were they just doing it because everybody else was doing it and they felt like they should be doing it? Which again, you know, you have to be able to, make a judgment on that, which can be difficult sometimes.

Megan:

That's a really good, good point of a lot of people were doing it because everyone was, and you look bad if you didn't. But that's really hard to understand exactly who truly is believing in it and are going to actually invest in it, not just with a role, but actually as an organization and make it part of their strategy. And I think interesting too of how you've gone back to creating something from scratch, but in a way pulling together all the threads of, you created something by scratch a couple of times already, but then you took the opportunity to be part of a bigger established team and learn more and get that different experience and then I imagine you're able to then bring that into the next role of, you know, you have created from scratch, but you also see how it can work when it's a bigger part of the business with a team behind it. So that's just like more tools in your tool belt, so to speak, as you're going into again kind of establish this role as a role that's focused on it a hundred percent of the time.

Jen:

That's definitely true. I mean, that was, it was a conscious choice to want to move into a team where I could learn from others. And I took a lot from that role into my current role. And I really learned in that time, like I had a, I built a real clear sense of what I believed in and what I thought was an impactful approach and, what were the things that maybe created less impact, but looked good, but what were the things that created the most impact? But, you know, took a bit longer, was a little bit more behind the scenes, that was more complex to implement. And I really, really wanted to make that more of a focus. So it was a great opportunity to learn. And I definitely had taken. What I learned from that role into that standalone role, it was definitely a great choice for me to move into a team for a period of time.

Megan:

That totally makes sense because it's a new strategic discipline. So there's a lot of trial and error to work through what things really do have the impact. And that would be a really great way to fast track some of that learning with a team who's maybe done some of those at that trial and error themselves as well to add to the things you've learned on your own. Amazing. You've touched on quite a few themes that you've seen, through your career. When you do that kind of reflection and look back on the journey. Are there other threads or common things that it's only upon reflection that you see how actually things are connected even if they maybe don't look like it on the surface?

Jen:

Yeah, I definitely think that I have chosen roles where I've had the opportunity to be autonomous. You know, where I've had the opportunity to create something. Mm-hmm. The standalone aspects of the roles, I have not intentionally sought out. I've sort of ended up in those roles, but actually it ended up being a really good learning curve and a learning experience because I've had to, figure out a lot of things. But it also has helped to build confidence. I think, going from those different roles, where I have mostly they've been in a very small team or I've been in a standalone role within a team. You do have to learn to trust your own judgment. Mm-hmm. And there has been a lot of that where I've not necessarily had someone immediately, more senior to me to look to and to ask them. A lot of the times I've had to trust my judgment and work it out, and the business is often looking to me to advise. So that has, that's definitely been a common theme, and creating that process improvement, creating that efficiency, creating that impact. It's definitely, definitely been common themes throughout the roles that, that I've taken on. But I think that helps you to get to a position where if an opportunity does come along, where you will really be leading something, you've built up that confidence.'cause you've had to rely on your own judgment for so long, even though you've been in, quite junior roles up until that point. So I think that's been a really valuable part of my career journey because I've been in lots of circumstances where I am that most senior person in that role, and I've had to make that judgment and make that call and then, learn from what works and what doesn't work, and then make that, work for the next role where you're maybe stepping up into even more of a level of responsibility.

Megan:

Yeah, that's really good. Because it is a new role or certainly was a new role early in your, career and you're building it there isn't someone necessarily to ask advice and, because you're the only person doing it, it's also fairly visible role I would imagine as well. So just that problem solving and dealing with all the ambiguity of creating the role and,, supporting the business, like prioritize which things are gonna have the biggest impact. Yeah, it's a rare opportunity to get to really own something. Even if you're not the most senior person in the room. Another kind of look back, if you think about yourself at 15, 16 years old, what would she think about where you are now?'cause it is quite different from some of the creative and entertainment things that a younger, Jennifer was interested in and thought they might pursue.

Jen:

Yeah. So. I think 16-year-old me would probably be a little surprised that I have a corporate job.'cause, you know, because at that age I still had dreams of being a big star. But I also think that a 16-year-old me would also be happy that I found a career, where I can use my creativity and challenge those interests in a different way. And in a way that can have a positive impact because yeah, if I knew. At 16 that, a career in diversity and inclusion was possible, or that type of a job existed. I think my decisions and my journey to this point may have been, a little bit more clear. It took me a while, but, I found the right fit for me in the end. And, just thinking about those aspects of my interests when I was growing up and how I'm using them now. I mean, I do a lot of writing now I also do quite a lot of public speaking. I've had opportunities to be creative, in terms of designing like social media content. I've even had the opportunity to work with a production company to create a short video, which was great fun, so I feel like I've I've landed in a role where I haven't completely abandoned all of those things that I enjoyed growing up and thought, you know, I'd like to do this. Mm-hmm. Or something like this, or something that's involved with this type of creativity, I am just doing it in a different way, but in a way that's also playing to other strengths. So not just the creativity side of things, but also, the way that I like creating things from scratch and creating processes and creating tangible impact and results. so I'm getting lots of different things that draw on various different skills and just bring them to life in different ways. So I think ultimately, my 16-year-old self probably wouldn't think I've totally abandoned all of those dreams. I'm still doing those things, but just in a different way.

Megan:

Even at the beginning you were saying like, yes, you leaned into the creativity and imagined yourself being in entertainment, but you were doing science and other things. So being able to pull that all together into one role is amazing. It's. Reminder of or maybe not reminder, but just a good illustration of actually even in the corporate world, there is opportunities for creativity and that kind of thing. Like not every corporate job is an accountant or, just about, about the numbers or the sales. So, you know, I think it's a good illustration of that as well.

Jen:

Yeah, for sure. I think that's it. There are opportunities, within organizations to be able to draw on that and to put it to good use, where you are making a positive contribution to the company's success overall. Mm-hmm. But you know, your contribution might just, look slightly different and draw on different skills. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why, maybe I lacked that clarity early on. When I was younger about what opportunities were out there because I didn't necessarily have that exposure to it. So I think that's why it's just so important for, companies to, go into schools and to create opportunities for people at a young age to learn, what is possible so that they can think about how they might be able to do something that speaks to them and that will fulfill them and that plays to their strengths. But potentially within a corporate setting, where they can have, a very stable life. But they're still able to use. Parts, the kind of skills and interests that they might otherwise think. Like, oh, well that's, that's that's just a dream. Like, that's something I could never do. I'm gonna have to do something, else that, doesn't actually give me the opportunity to use those skills. But there are lots of ways that you can be creative within the corporate world. It does absolutely exist. It's just about being aware of what's possible, and I guess finding out where you fit within that. Hundred percent agree.

Megan:

And just thinking about what you were saying about creativity in the corporate world and having more exposure to the possibilities. I think it's another piece of diversity of the different skill sets, the different perspectives. Businesses, law firms, the corporate world, they need that as well. They need those perspectives and skills just as much as they need STEM or, business majors or what have you. That's just an as important in terms of, the strategy of the business, but also new ideas, making sure you are considering your customers and know your customers. I mean, in so many different aspects. So I think you are right. A lot of people when they're young students, we don't see those possibilities. We see the corporate world as, finance, accounting, things like that. So they might close down that kind of opportunity, at least in, in their head, close down that as an option for them. Whereas those skills are so important and necessary and there is a place for them, in the corporate world.

Jen:

And I would hope that, these days there is more of that exploration going on. I mean, through my work we've done some storytelling exercises and we ask people about, what their career journey looks like and how that was shaped by other people and if someone never made them feel like they couldn't do something, and how that might've impacted them. I've certainly had people along the way say, oh no, you can't do that. Or no, that's not realistic. And that when you're younger, that can really affect you, even if it's something within your own, chosen path and, it's something that's, it's, within the corporate world or it's something that's achievable through study, a certain direction that you want to take. I think it's, people also have to understand the responsibility that they have to ensure that they're broadening people's minds, at that stage because, it could be. When someone's, 13, 14 years old, and if they're given certain advice or if they're not supported or, they're not encouraged to explore different things. Then, that could impact their lives. and we can't underestimate that. So I do think, yeah, organizations definitely do a lot more work these days, I think with schools, especially from a social mobility perspective. Mm-hmm. If someone doesn't have contacts or people within, their, their own world, whether that's their family or their friends of the family, or siblings or anyone else, that's just within their own world. You know, who's maybe not? In those sectors or not working within those sectors or within those different types of roles. And, they don't have the exposure to it because you don't know what you don't know. So I think it's, it's definitely a responsibility that, that schools and other people can have to, ensure that they're broadening people's minds so that they can get people to explore, at those early stages in their lives. Like what might be possible and what might be a good fit for them.

Megan:

Yeah, I think that's a really important point because as you were saying, we don't know what we don't know, and so many people, the only careers you know that exist in the world, I mean, there's the like doctor, teacher, the kind of standard list, for lack of a better term. And then what do your parents do? What do your friends' parents do? And those are the only options you see. And if actually if your parents or your friend's parents aren't doing the standard list of roles, then that might also feel outside of something that's available to you. And it, so I think that's so important. It's one of the things that I really enjoy about, the conversations I get to have with the podcast is everyone's journey is so different and most people like yourself. It's not necessarily a straight line. It's I did this thing and I learned about this, and then I made a decision to lean into that more or lean away from something. But if you don't even have somewhere to start in terms of it being available to you or your background or like what you see in your world. Like if you don't see it, you can't even kind of take that first exploratory step of, oh, what, wait, what would this mean? Is this something I could do? Would I like it? Can I try it in some way? Whether it's, what you choose to do in school or like volunteering or part-time jobs, however, you are looking to explore those opportunities. So I think that's a really, really important point. Mm-hmm.

Jen:

Yeah, it's, it is, I think it is just so important. But yeah, I do think, I've been, in the corporate world now for 15 years or so, and I think a lot of things have moved on, even in that short amount of time. Mm-hmm. So I do think there's a lot more focus on it, and I think people are more alive to it, and the fact that we can have such an influence. On younger people and what path they choose to take or what, like you say, what path they feel like is open to them. Like what they can see is that viable? Is that accessible to them? And there's so many different types of career and. I do think, it's important for us to make sure that we're facilitating that exploration and creating access to those opportunities as, as much as we can, so even us and know in our roles now what can we do? Can we, there are plenty of volunteering programs out there where you can go into schools and some schools that I'm aware of now do programs where they specifically want to invite people into challenge gender bias. And gender bias, when it comes to different types of careers and roles that people can have. And that I think, lots of schools are doing some really great work now. I just, love to see even more of that. And I guess people mm-hmm. in our positions taking the opportunity and realizing that responsibility that we have to also help influence, the future of other people, at that young age. It, the decisions are made earlier than I think any of us realize. Depending on what's around people, what they can see, what they believe to be true and what they believe to be accessible to them.

Megan:

And there's so much responsibility. That we have with the ability to influence.'cause that can be a very positive or negative thing that you can do. As you were saying before, like a simple, oh that's not realistic, or, that might not be for you. That can completely change someone's trajectory and make a path completely feel like it's closed, which isn't, generally actually true. there's so much responsibility that goes into that influence and remembering that our words have weight. Even if it just feels like a small comment, especially with young people they hold onto it in a much more way.'cause their life experience is obviously less. So, they assume we know what we're talking about as adults. Mm-hmm. So just remembering that, that responsibility. Sticking with 16-year-old Jennifer for a second, if you could go back in time, is there a piece of advice you would love to give yourself?

Jen:

Yeah, so I, I would say trust the process. Don't always be in such a rush. And if an opportunity is presented to you. Take it and trust the journey that will follow even if it might be going in a different direction than you maybe initially thought when I look back I'd say pretty much everything in my career that's happened has led to something positive. Mm-hmm. More often than not, even though it might not have been clear at the time where it would lead. And I, I have taken some chances for sure, and, I'm sure I probably maybe could have taken even more. So one of my favorite quotes is Richard Branson where he said, if someone offers you an amazing opportunity and you're not sure you can do it, say yes and then learn how to do it later. So. For me personally, I, I've definitely taken this advice in my career and I will continue to do so. The, the job I'm doing now, I actually pulled out of the interview process after the first interview because I was worried that maybe I couldn't do it, that I didn't have all the experience on paper to do what they needed. But after, I pulled out. I didn't really think about it. And then after a few weeks they got back in touch and, asked if I might consider changing my mind. And I did, and I'm so glad I did because once I got over that self-doubt and that imposter syndrome, it's without a doubt been the best career move that I've made. So I think it's, it is about believing in yourself. And taking the chance and taking the opportunity if it is presented to you, because it's always an opportunity to grow, you know? And if you have that potential, you need the opportunity to be able to realize that potential.

Megan:

That is amazing advice and worst case you learn something, but like in your career, you've taken on roles that didn't even exist before so if you hadn't been open to taking that leap, wouldn't be doing what you're doing now. And I think it is such amazing advice and sometimes hard to do in the moment, mm-hmm. Really, really important advice. So we've done a lot of, looking back when you look forward, what's your hope for the future or your vision for the future? It could be, short term like tomorrow, or it could be long term. What are you hoping for?

Jen:

Yeah. It's no secret that it's quite a challenging time for diversity and inclusion at the moment. Mm-hmm. From a workplace context amongst others. But I believe in the spirit of this work and I remain pivoted to it. I truly care about it. It means a lot to me and there's, there's lots of opportunity, for me to take what I've learned and achieved and to broaden the scope, into wider responsible business considerations. Mm-hmm. So, I'm very much staying alive to where those opportunities are and how I might be able to take steps to carve out those next steps going forward. So I think there's a lot that I've done to date that can add value. To those wider considerations. So I guess we'll see where that leads.

Megan:

that's awesome. And as you said, it is a bit of a weird time right now with some of the rhetoric especially from other countries, around, that whole diversity, equity and inclusion topic. So, I imagine there's some uncertainty, but. With your sense of purpose and values and focus on impact I think there's so much opportunity and we need people like yourself with this passion to carry it forward and continue. Whether it's out loud or it's behind the scenes, continuing to drive it forward. It's so important. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for being on today and sharing your journey. And as I said, throughout I think it's such a good illustration of creativity and corporate, but also of you don't know what roles are gonna exist. I didn't exist as we were saying like 10 years ago. So it's impossible when you are like 16 to be like, I'm gonna do this job when I grow up. Mm-hmm. There are exceptions to that, and some people are those exceptions, but just being open to the journey. And I really see that in your journey of, making the best decision you can with what's in front of you and what's important to you and what kind of life you want to lead. And then just leaning into the things that are interesting and the new opportunities that are presenting. So thank you so much for sharing. It's really amazing and I think it is gonna be inspiring to others as well. So thank you.

Jen:

No, thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer's story is such an amazing example of how unexpected career journeys often are. Some of the things I took away from Jennifer's journey were One, keep your options open, especially when you were young. Even though Jennifer had dreams of a glamorous career in entertainment when she was young and was drawn to the performing arts, music, and writing, she still mixed in the sciences while she was at school. It is a great way to learn as much as you can, experiment and begin to understand yourself better. Which leads to my second takeaway. Jennifer's journey is an excellent example that we don't know all the jobs that will exist in five years or 10 years, so take a bit of pressure off. We don't have to treat every career decision like we are locking ourselves onto a single track forever. You can always change the paths as you discover new things. And third, as Jennifer has moved through her career, she has taken ownership of her trajectory and the skills and experiences she wanted to develop. She was upfront of wanting to ultimately move into an HR generalist role when she was taking on a role in recruitment, and then when that wasn't a right fit, she advocated for herself again. Later in her career, she purposefully sought out a role within a team to expand her skills and perspectives in her field. I. lastly, Jennifer's advice is spot on. Take the opportunities that are presented to you and trust the journey that might follow, even if it's not in the direction you thought it might be. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.

Head Shot

Megan Dunford

Host