Susan Walsh: Finding Her Calling in Data

S4E2: Susan Walsh is Founder and Managing Director of The Classification Guru Ltd and turns chaotic business data into something businesses can trust.

Following an early career in Sales and then rebuilding after bankruptcy after a retail business failed, she found her calling in data and has built a specialist business supporting 100+ organizations globally and created a tool, Samification, to help organizations standardize their supplier and customer data. And check out her TedX Talk, Say No to No

Website: http://www.theclassificationguru.com/

Samification: https://samification.com/

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Webpage: https://theunexpectedcareerpodcast.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

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0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. My guest today is Susan Walsh, author, speaker, and founder of the Classification Guru.

Megan 0:36

Thank you. And welcome.

Susan 0:38

Thanks. It's so dark and wet out there. When is it gonna be? Summer?

Megan 0:44

They just were teasing us yesterday with sunshine. I guess let's jump in.

Susan 0:49

Let's do it.

Megan 0:50

Awesome. So I always start with, when you were a small child, what did you want to be when you grew up? What were you dreaming of when you were little?

Susan 1:03

I never really had a specific calling in my early teens. I think at one point I really wanted to be a pathologist and do autopsies, but mom and dad were like, okay, if that's what you wanna go and do, figure out what you need to do. So I went and read up on it and back in those days it was, you had to go to the library and read books. The internet wasn't around and I discovered that you had to train as a doctor first, and then train as a, and I was like, no, that's like 10 years of training. I haven't really fancy that. So I got scrapped and then. I was like, what do I like doing? And I guess I thought I liked organizing, but now I realize I like categorizing. But that didn't really come into my life until my thirties, you know, that was, lots of windy, twisty paths before that.

Megan 1:57

Yeah, certainly sometimes you discover those things by trying lots of different things and experimenting and

Susan 2:03

Yeah, and I wish, that's one thing I say to young people now is try lots of stuff. Try temp jobs, try a bit of this, try a bit of that. Because when I graduated it was still, you get a job for life and you pick your lane and you stay with that company for 30, 40 years and you don't change. And that's the worst thing for me anyway. That would've been the worst thing.

Megan 2:23

And how do you actually know what you wanna do? And that's one of the things I love about the podcast is hearing the journey people went through and what they thought they wanted to do. And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. But

Susan 2:35

yeah,

Megan 2:35

when you're young or even when you're, you know, in university there's only so many jobs and industries that you know exist. So. How can you sign up to something forever

Susan 2:46

Or, it didn't exist when I was growing up, so I didn't, hundred percent didn't even know it was an option.

Megan 2:51

Yeah,

Susan 2:52

and you know, procurement wasn't a word that I even learned until about 15 years ago. That was like, I didn't even know about. That was an option, especially in Dundee. It was call center in our NHS go and be a nurse or market supermarket. That was literally the options, so, wow. I was like, yeah, I don't really wanna do any of those.

Megan 3:12

So once you looked into pathology and was like, that's way too much school and maybe going to medical school wasn't of interest. Did you decide to go into university if you did, what did you decide to take? How did you make that decision?

Susan 3:28

That's a whole other story too. When I was 15 so in Scotland you do your standard grades, which are like gCSEs and then you do your higher grades, which are like A levels. But your standard grades are two years and your higher grades are one year. And somebody came from the local college and was like, you don't need to stay at school. You could come to college and do it. And I was just like, oh wow. Freedom. And that just really appealed to me to do my highers there And of course my mom and dad were like, you're not leaving school. I think they thought, leaving school you're not even 16 yet. This is gonna be the end. You're never gonna have any future. And they were like, not while you're living under this roof. And I was like, that's fine, I'll just move out then. They came round. 'cause I am quite stubborn. Always have been. And for me that was the best thing. And I had planned to do two years at college and then go to university because nobody in our family had ever been to university before.

Megan 4:26

Wow.

Susan 4:27

But when I was at college, I spoke to a careers person and she was like, no, you with what you've got, you could apply to go to university next year. And I was like, really? I would've been like 17 at that point, which is really young for starting uni. But I have never been good at maths. I'm terrible still at maths. In fact, I feel like I am numerically dyslexic or like my mind actually freezes and has a panic attack when somebody throws a formula at me or even just a long division. It's like everything stops and shuts down and I try so hard with my higher maths, I had extra tuition and I knew when I went through that exam that I had failed it and failed it badly. So my dad was like, why don't you speak to the university and just tell them, see if you can do some summer school or something so I went up to the university, spoke to the course leader, and he was like, oh, you'll be fine. Everyone always thinks they failed. Don't worry about it. Okay. I am telling you I failed it. What's gonna happen if I don't pass? Everyone thinks they fail, but they always pass. Okay. Get my results through. Failed so badly it didn't even show up on the results. Like it just, oh

Megan 5:38

wow.

Susan 5:38

Like I never even sat the exam. It was so bad. And then of course the letter comes through from the uni saying you didn't get in. And then I'm sobbing my heart out. Like this is just the end. I know. And my dad was like, no, you did the right thing. You went to them and they told you it would be okay. You need to phone them. So I think he came up to the university with me and we spoke to the head of the business school and we were basically. It's like, when all the things just align. this was the last year of the commerce degree that I was applying to do, so there were no more options to actually even do it after this. So I think, you know what? We'll just let her in and whatever. and I thought with it being a commerce degree, which is like a business degree, I thought that's nice and broad, you know? After four years, I'm sure I'll figure out what I want to do by then. Of course I didn't. But but yeah, that was my, fight into university. So yeah, it was a bit wild, but it's just, I'm so lucky to have parents that were like, no, you know, and cheering me on and and allowing me to believe I could do whatever I wanted to as well. Not everybody has that. And the more women I speak to, the more I realize how lucky I was to have a family that didn't put any preconceived ideas about what I could and couldn't do as a girl

Megan 6:56

To have that support and encouragement. Like the little push of no, be persistent. Let's follow up. Let's see. Until you've asked the question, the answer is always no. So that kind of support and as you said, cheering you on is amazing and so important because all these things seem so big and devastating when they don't go to plan, but there's often other ways and sometimes it's like, okay, let's have a conversation. And sometimes there's maybe a different route, but yeah. That's amazing.

Susan 7:28

Absolutely. And eventually I went on to do a TED Talk called Say No To No. Which is basically about no is not the end, no is just you find another route to where you wanna get to. Ah, amazing. Think we, we often hear no is the end, right? Mm-hmm.

Megan 7:43

But it doesn't

Susan 7:43

have to be the end, you know? It's just a divergent.

Megan 7:47

Yeah, it's just like, a door or whatever, and maybe there's a window you could open instead.

Susan 7:51

Right. Or it's like a really high wall. So just

Megan 7:54

walk

Susan 7:54

around outside instead for a while or dig under it. There's different, there, there's always another way.

Megan 8:00

I love that analogy of the wall. 'cause so often we're right up at it and so all we see is how high it is. But it might not be very wide, so That's a great analogy. So you did find your way into university, which is amazing. And you chose business, which Yeah. Broad subject. Hopefully figure it out. Yeah. So at the end of school, it sounds like you didn't yet know what you wanted to do still. So what did you do? What was your first job? How did you go about that?

Susan 8:31

Yeah, it was tough and I'd had the dream of living and working in London.

Megan 8:35

That was the

Susan 8:35

big thing. And so I had come down and done a ton of interviews and so I was like 20 at that point. So sometimes they were saying I was too young and they were worried that I'd be too young and were living in the big city, and I'm like, what? That was a ridiculous ex. And I went to some really dodgy interviews and stuff that I guess now I'm like, what was I doing? Putting myself in these situations, like Vauxhall now in London is a nice area. But I can promise you, in like 1999, 2000, it was very dodgy and I literally had a printed map. 'cause there was no GPS mapping either. Trying to find this random office and having to stop a strange man in the street. And he's like, yeah, follow me. what am I following him into? Oh the naivety of youth. So I tried and I tried for sales jobs and again, the whole maths thing kept coming in. And my tip is I did manage to pass the maths test, but what I had to do with buy the books and practice and practice and practice the same similar kind of questions, so that familiarity and repetition just to, to get through that bit. But none of those things worked and the job that I eventually got was not really because of my degree, but because I'd spent five years working in Woolworths, which was a big retailer back

Megan 9:53

then.

Susan 9:54

So I've done a lot of merchandising, customer service, looking after departments and I got a job as a paint rep. So I would go around Scotland to DIY stores and I would merchandise and make all the paint all nice to plan a gram and leave out little color charts and do for the staff. And eventually they knew I had wanted to move to London and Guilford happened to be the middle of the territory that I was covering. So that was 23 years ago, 24 years ago, and I'm still here.

Megan 10:27

Wow.

Susan 10:27

Definitely not doing the same job, but still here.

Megan 10:30

That's amazing.

Susan 10:31

Yeah. Yeah. So it is, it is really everything just ended up aligning.

Megan 10:37

Hearing that story is. There's so many different things that go into a role, and so your experience in Woolworths is ultimately what created an opportunity, and I think sometimes, regardless of our age, but especially when we're young, we discount those experiences. It's like, oh, well that was just a retail job, or I worked in a restaurant. Yeah, that was for some pocket money. Actually it's really valuable experience and can lead to really unexpected opportunities.

Susan 11:08

There's a whole generation missing out now. I learned my whole work ethic from the most amazing manager there who made us make sure that everything was neatly faced forward and properly, and all the dates of the crisps were the right way around. And if you were seen chatting and she would come over and she would say, go and tidy this. Go and dust the shelves. There was always something to do.

Megan 11:29

Mm-hmm.

Susan 11:29

And also, I always say if you've survived a Christmas in Woolworth's pre-internet where you've been sworn at, it's hot, there's hundreds of people in the store you can survive anything. But back then I really did think 'cause I could have gone down the store manager program route and I thought, well why did I go to university if I could have done that anyway? Which seems silly now, but at the time. But actually, if I was doing things now, I'm not sure I would go down the degree route unless it was a vocation. I think I would probably get an apprenticeship instead, but, don't regret the choices I made because it's all helped lead

12:04

to

Megan 12:04

me.

Susan 12:04

I'm now

Megan 12:04

Well and that's exactly, it's there's so many different ways to figure out your path and, I think there's more opportunity today as well in terms of options. Certainly when I was young, I, I'm not gonna speak for you, but when I was young. University wasn't even something I thought of. It's just like, well, that's what everyone did. So

Susan 12:27

yeah,

Megan 12:28

that's what you did.

Susan 12:28

I mean, I got it for free. How lucky was I?

Megan 12:32

Yeah, I

Susan 12:33

didn't appreciate how lucky I was.

Megan 12:36

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And obviously not

Susan 12:39

same come out now with all that debt, right? You, I mean, I still had student loans the day I paid them off. I was like, I thought I'd be dead before this happened. And I was really lucky. I was in an old, old system where you, take, they took a set amount from you every month, not a percentage of your salary. Yeah. So I would remember younger people than me would get a bonus at the end of the year and they would be like, oh, it's gone to the student loan. And I was like, not for me. So that was nice. So there are some benefits to being older, but

Megan 13:09

yeah.

Susan 13:09

It's a different world now.

Megan 13:11

it's a much bigger decision now in terms of just the cost of it for sure.

Susan 13:18

It stays with you a lot longer, I think.

Megan 13:20

Mm-hmm. Yes, because you're carrying that financial burden for a long time and that impacts all sorts of decisions you make. Like what job you would take, where you're gonna move to, do you commute into London or get to live in Central. Like all those

Susan 13:36

where, yeah. Where can you afford to live and pay all your bills and yeah. How long is that going to what Yeah, what's, how much of this is gonna span your lifetime that you're paying these off?

Megan 13:47

Yeah, exactly.

Susan 13:47

And then what if you do change careers? 'cause that happens too, right? Yeah. And then that's expensive.

Megan 13:54

And I think it happens to a lot of people 'cause just as we were talking right at the top, like how do you know what you wanna do when you graduate And you might have locked yourself into a vocational degree, you know, law or engineering or something like that. And then you start working in that. It's like, oh wait, this is not for me.

Susan 14:14

You change as a person too. I mean, how many couples do you know now that have remained together from childhood? Because people grow and move in different directions and it's the same with your careers and the skills I have now. I don't think I would be capable of understanding I even had them that age or I was capable of doing the things that I do now. So

Megan 14:36

a hundred percent. You get all of that through experience and trying things and.

14:42

Failing

Susan 14:42

a lot.

Megan 14:43

Failing a lot. Yeah. So maybe, tell me a little bit about what you're doing now, 'cause it's really cool and then the journey from going around the country with paint to what you're doing now.

Susan 14:57

Yeah. Right now I have a business called the Classification Guru. Our tagline is Fixers of Dirty Data.

Megan 15:04

Amazing.

Susan 15:05

I've had it since 2017, so we're coming up for nine years. And we started by helping organizations in the procurement space classify spend data. So basically categorizing everything they've spent from their invoices. Showing them how much they spent on it, hr professional services, and then, you know, going into to levels. And then because I didn't know anybody in the space when I set the business up, I didn't have that referral that most people who set businesses up had for getting business. So I had to get creative and so LinkedIn was a really great platform. Yeah. Eight, nine years ago. That people weren't using it in the same way that they are today. But I had started to play around with some fun posts and started doing videos about what is spend data, what is a taxonomy, what is supplier normalization? And that really lifted my visibility. So I ended up writing a book called Between the Spreadsheets, classifying Oh. And Testing Dirty Data in 2001. And then the second edition of that came out. Last year in October.

Megan 16:12

Wow, congratulations.

Susan 16:13

I've done the TED Talk during that time. I've then ended up speaking nobody else is really talking about data quality the way I do, and I'm really passionate about it, which is also quite unusual. So I really have made a niche for myself doing this. And we've expanded our services over the years. I have a team too. And now we do all kinds of data. So not just procurement, but finance, sales, marketing. We've even cleaned latitude and longitude data before, so, you know, wow. We can do anything. Yeah. And then very excited that I have a new book coming out in March, which is called Optimizing Sales and Marketing Data. So now have that as a data cleaning book coming out. And it's crazy to think that there are no books and no resources in the space. For marketeers and salespeople to actually. Do this.

Megan 17:00

That is crazy. 'cause data is so important. Like everything they're CRMs.

Susan 17:05

Yeah.

Megan 17:06

Yeah. See, sales particularly, and marketing, that's all built on data. Knowing your customers, which is data, and then you bring in AI into the world, that's all built on data as well. So that's,

Susan 17:21

and it needs to, between data and not many organizations have that. So that's where I am now. Where I've been is a wild road or so after the paint wrap job, I stayed in sales. I did everything from cold calling around local businesses on food, trying to sell print to telesales into national accounts. In my twenties, I was like sales director, sales director. And then at some point I was like, I don't even like this. It wasn't. Relationship building sales. It was like, you go to Asda and they say, right, give us this price. Or are we gonna take all your products off the shelf? There was no, relationship building. That kinda stuff. So I decided to open a women's clothes shop in here in Guilford, as you do.

Megan 18:09

Yep.

Susan 18:09

Did the sums. Thought if I could say five dresses a day, you know, Guilford's affluent, that's, achievable, opened up right before Christmas and. Nobody came in. I struggled on for about seven months and then had racked up so much debt. I was so broke that I couldn't even afford to go bankrupt. I had to save up for six months to file for bankruptcy. And I needed a job fast. I needed anything. So wound up the shop and I couldn't even pay someone to wind the company up. I had to do it all myself. So this was about. 15 years ago, and again, the internet wasn't where it's at today, so it wasn't as easy to find all this information. Did that, went to go work for a spend analytics company. It was supposed to be a stop gap. I did that as a part-time thing. Got a six month contract in sales again, which I didn't really enjoy.

Megan 19:04

Mm-hmm.

Susan 19:05

I did get to go on QVC and sell bras for live for 15 minutes, so that was a really great experience.

Megan 19:10

That's pretty cool.

Susan 19:11

Yeah. And then when that contract came to the end, the spend analytics company were like, actually, we're growing. So we have, we can give you full-time work. So I ended up spending five years there. Learned from scratch, started at the bottom, how to classify, working a tool. I learned a data model. An ETL tool. I grew a team of 14 people, trained and managed them. Managed all the projects. And then we got bought by a bigger company and it became a corporation and I didn't like it so much. Not the same. And I didn't know, I didn't know where I could get a job doing this one, 'cause I'm not an analyst. I don't code. I can understand coding and I probably could wing it. I don't have that qualification on my cv. I'm really good at this one specific corner. And so it was a case of my options were okay, start at the bottom somewhere else again. And I was on good money at that point. I didn't really want to do that. Or I start another business, which, you know, a lot of people were like, are you sure you want to do that? And I was like, no, no, this is different. There's less overhead. I'm working from home and. Like I say, I had always been behind the scenes, so I had no connections. I literally went out there, went to an event, exhibited, made some connections, and then just started talking to people and connecting with them on LinkedIn, and that is where it all started. And then, yeah, here I am still and I'm talking to you.

Megan 20:40

That's really amazing because. You took a job because needs must, like you just needed to take something and it was the start of a career and a business. Yeah. And again, who could plan for that? That's not something that you can pre-plan. Yeah. It was, it was kind of an accident. And you found

Susan 21:03

my calling

Megan 21:03

skill. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Your calling and new skills and. Also then with starting the business, that's like the coming together of all these different things. You'd run a business before, maybe that one didn't work out, but you would've learned so much about running a business.

Susan 21:19

I did, but it was, it's a very different business. But some of this stuff was this, honestly the bankruptcy was like one of the worst things that ever happened, and so anything that happens now is never as bad as that. So it helps. Your levels of what disastrous are change, so it makes you, I can manage stress, stress a lot more because I've been at the bottom.

Megan 21:43

Yeah. Which in itself is a really important skillset when you're starting a business, but the business also brings in all this experience you had in sales as well. 'cause it's like, okay, I built this, but now I have to get customers. And being a really early adopter of LinkedIn is, I don't know, I think it's really cool of just sort of bringing together these different experiences at the perfect time.

Susan 22:12

Yeah. I still remember the first post I did that got over a thousand impressions, which back then was huge. Actually now because of the algorithm that's still, that's huge. Again, it would be huge. Yeah. But it was such an un LinkedIn post. It was, we loved fixing data so you don't have to, or something fun like that. And it was just a picture of me and, and it was something a bit different and people just loved it. And I still remember that, feeling a turning point.

Megan 22:42

Yeah. And it sounds like you made data a bit. Human, which it often isn't.

Susan 22:48

The reality

Megan 22:48

or the

Susan 22:48

perception

Megan 22:49

isn't.

Susan 22:49

Yeah. The reality is most of the people who are making the mistakes with data are not data people. They know what to do. It's the sales and marketing people. It's the finance people. It's the procurement people. Right. They're just forced to do that as part of their job.

Megan 23:04

Yeah.

Susan 23:04

And they're being neglected. So I'm like, we need to get these people on board and we need to make it relatable and interesting, or they're not going to listen. Yeah.

Megan 23:13

Otherwise it's just admin and it's like, well, why is it that important?

Susan 23:17

Yeah. But I think another thing I wanted to bring up that I think is important is 'cause I talk openly about the bankruptcy and stuff like that. And a lot of people are like, oh, no, I wouldn't talk about that, but. I think that shows my stripes. And if you're in the US it's almost like a badge of honor, right? Or you haven't really lived until you've been bankrupt twice. Whereas here it's like, it's the end. Don't mention it. And I do think as a woman it's even worse. I think you judge more.

Megan 23:45

Yeah.

Susan 23:46

But I think it's really important to be open and talk about these things to, to let other women particularly know that it's okay to fail. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Megan 23:58

That is so important. And you have to take the chances and maybe that again, on paper, it didn't create a direct connection to what you're doing now. But if you hadn't done that, you wouldn't have needed the role. It's just like the way the universe sometimes works out and

Susan 24:15

kind of like a paying it forward thing, but you don't,

Megan 24:17

yeah,

Susan 24:18

you don't necessarily pay it forward or it doesn't come back from the same direction, so you pay it forward to this person, but someone else will pay it forward to you from another place. It's not circular, if that makes sense.

Megan 24:28

A hundred percent. And what you were saying about having that new understanding of like I know what the bottom is, so I'm not gonna be stressed about this thing that's happening right now. That resilience and things you would've learned about yourself is so powerful and creates the foundation for, what you're doing now. And that's sort of the point of failure. Maybe that's a weird way to say it, but you have to try things to learn, and they're not always gonna work out, but you're gonna learn just as much from the things that don't work out, probably more,

Susan 25:07

more

Megan 25:08

than the things that do.

Susan 25:09

Yeah. I've learned so much more from the failures than the successes.

Megan 25:14

Yeah. So as long as you're learning and you're not getting stuck in the failure, then it's all, it's good. Just keep moving forward.

Susan 25:23

I'm having fun. Like I truly love. What I do and I know that passion shines through with what I do. Not everybody's lucky to have found that. But you have to at least enjoy what you do otherwise you just resent it and it becomes a chore.

Megan 25:40

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, we spend most of our time at work, unfortunately, so you have to enjoy it.

Susan 25:48

My people say, oh, do you have a hobby? I'm like, I run a business. I don't have time for hobbies. My hobby is my business. Because even when you're not working, you're thinking of ideas and what, you did this and I could do that, and you never switch off.

Megan 26:01

Yeah. You can't just turn your brain off. You can't compartmentalize when it's your own. It's your business, it's your baby.

Susan 26:07

It's almost in double digits, which is crazy as well. That's, for me a huge one was getting to five years because businesses don't make it to five. And honestly I thought, oh, getting to 10 will be great. It'd be super easy then because you are, the first bit is the hardest. People don't tell you that. It gets harder, and the last two years have been the worst two years of my business. Like I've had to lay people off, I've had to cut back. You know, we've barely scraped by and nine years in almost. I don't have that energy and enthusiasm that I did year one and two and three. Right. I am almost 10 years older now too. So, yeah. Yeah, it's, and I speak, I say this to other business owners too, and they say the same thing and they're like, yeah, it doesn't get easier. And that's, that's the biggest surprise for me, I would say, is that I thought it would, I'd be like, coasting by now, you know?

Megan 27:05

Mm-hmm.

Susan 27:05

With the luxury holidays and, partly that's me because I don't just settle for what I have now. I always wanted more, be bigger, be better. But yeah, that's, that was a real insight for me.

Megan 27:18

Yeah. It's, it's hard work and I imagine it can be lonely, 'cause it's all on you.

Susan 27:27

Yeah. And I am single. I live on my own. I don't have financial backup. It is all on me to do everything. And my bills are more expensive 'cause I live on my own as well. So yeah. But then also I think in some ways that is also a relief because I'm only responsible for me, I don't have a family that I need to provide for. Yeah, sure. So in other ways it's not as stressful.

Megan 27:51

Yeah. I mean there is, pros and cons to everything, but I think that's the thing about entrepreneurship. A lot of times, people who are in corporate are they kind of crave that because of the freedom. And there is, you own your own schedule and things like that. But the downside is, can be financial. It can be just the stress of it is all on you. It's even the, you can't compartmentalize, like your brain doesn't shut off in the same way when you're in a corporate, and this is not everyone obviously, but there are, it is easier I think to be like, well I'm gonna leave this for the weekend.

Susan 28:26

Yeah. Even if you've got a really shitty boss, you can leave that at the door. And, and actually, to be fair, I have a friend who has been tormented by her manager who's getting calls at 7, 8, 9 o'clock at night. But you can switch the phone off. Can't shut your mind off. But but yeah, I mean, I wouldn't swap it for the world. I love, I really do love what I do.

Megan 28:49

Yeah. Yeah, I can tell, and it's such an important, as you were saying before, data is so important and having clean data is the foundation for the strategies most companies wanna do. And if you wanna continue to build on it with ai, just to use the generic term of it, you have to have clean data. It otherwise. You're just kind of throwing money away so people,

Susan 29:18

yeah. People are assuming that AI is gonna fix all the dirty data. Right. But if it's never seen it before and doesn't know how to clean it, then it won't be able to Yeah,

Megan 29:27

it doesn't know what

Susan 29:27

it always, what's right. Yeah, definitely. And also I just think I'm not your stereotypical data person, and I didn't even think I would be a data person because I can't do maths, you know, and so I like to show that there are so many different areas and data that you could work in. There's something for everybody.

Megan 29:46

That's such a good reminder. This is why I think your career is so cool because it isn't traditional from a data standpoint as you said. You came into it sort of by accident. You started with career in sales but that's what makes it work and

Susan 30:05

absolutely.

Megan 30:06

And it's also a good reminder of there are so many different ways to come at things and one thing might be an obstacle, but that doesn't, it's just an obstacle. It's not like a dead end.

Susan 30:17

Yeah. I've kinda got my foot in two camps, so I'm half in the business world and half in the data world and I understand both. So can connect everything.

Megan 30:25

And that's what most of the time people need is someone to translate between the two, two sides. It's such a unique and important skillset.

Susan 30:36

Yeah. And I think that'll become increasingly important as well.

Megan 30:41

Mm-hmm. Yes, for sure. And I actually, I think that's a really good point because there's been kind of a. A push on specialization and then you just create more people on both sides who don't know how to speak to each other. 'cause they speak different languages. Like they're, data and sales seem like different languages and you need someone to be able to translate. Yeah.

Susan 31:04

Even some of the prompts I put into GPT and I realized what I think is a clear instruction is not. When it comes back with something I hadn't even thought of. So yeah, it's, it is almost two different languages at times.

Megan 31:18

Yeah, for sure. And I, that's something I hadn't thought of, that ability to be able to understand the business and the data, just the science of a good prompt is part of that translation and more and more important.

Susan 31:37

Yeah, it's even, so I'd say, can you create an image of me doing this? I didn't specify whether I wanted that to be a 3D image, a photographic image, a cartoon, an animation. So you start to learn all those things, and it's just the same talking to people, right? We're not mind readers. We have to, even if we think we're being clear, we're not always being clear.

Megan 31:57

Exactly, what are all the data points that they will need to be able to understand what we're asking?

Susan 32:02

Yeah.

Megan 32:04

So when you look back on your career journey, which is, as I've said a couple times, really cool and winding. Well

Susan 32:12

I dunno, if you used to ask my mom, she would be like, you're so unstable, you're not reliable. She used to freak out, but I think she's sadly not around anymore, but I think she'd be super proud of what I've done now. I can imagine she would freak out so much. So you can't change jobs again. You've not been there long enough. You'll never get employed. And now, I mean, and that's

Megan 32:34

where it's so different now.

Susan 32:36

Yeah. Two years people stay, two years people are considered long. And that's crazy. Like two years used to be like, oh you can't commit.

Megan 32:43

I feel at two years is when I'm like, okay, I think I get it now.

Susan 32:47

I know. And also there's something really nice about that familiarity, right? Of knowing what you do and just being able to do it. And that's what I love about this job now is I'm comfortable. Because things were really tough and I did have to look at maybe getting a job last year and I was like, oh. You having to learn something new and being in unfamiliar surroundings and you know learning people's names and just all those little things like, it's hard. I feel like a superhero 'cause I know everything in my little realm. It's great.

Megan 33:17

Yeah.

Susan 33:17

Going outside of that, it's like, oh,

Megan 33:19

and it's, I think it's one of those things where. Obviously you are doing that in a way because you work with clients, so you have to learn theirs. So it's this balance of of course we want some stability and as you said, that being a superpower of wait, I know my things. But because of the industry you're in, it's not. I wouldn't say it's just being in your comfort zone, because you still have to do that. Well,

Susan 33:49

yeah. It's weird because I cannot do boring jobs. I can't do repetitive things. I get bored so so quickly. So from that point of view, yeah. I love the unpredictability and the problem solving that I get to do for my clients because every single project is different, but because of all my different combinations of experience, I can be like, right, we'll do this, this, this, and this.

Megan 34:10

Yeah.

Susan 34:10

But just the. The familiarity of knowing how to fix it makes me feel like, yeah I'm cool. I rock.

Megan 34:18

Yeah. Exactly. Confidence in your capabilities and

Susan 34:22

Yeah. Yeah and also I think it's important. As a business, like if it's not something I can do, I'll either say I haven't done it before, but I think I know how to do it. So we can try or I'll say, no, this is too far out of what we do, you know, you'd be better finding someone else. And I think there's not always that honesty in, even if it's a job and stuff, just saying, actually no, but I know, I think I know how to do it. Or No, this isn't right for me. Sometimes I think we just. You just wanna win that client or you just wanna get that job

Megan 34:54

and

Susan 34:54

you're not really thinking about, yeah, but do I actually want it? And can I do it and will I enjoy it?

Megan 35:00

That's such an important question of, yeah, do I want it? Will I enjoy it? And I think it's as important as the question of can I do it? 'cause there's lots of things. Well, yes we can do them. Maybe you've even done it before, but do you enjoy doing it? Do you wanna do it? That's part of the conversation. And if you're looking at a job in a business, then there's also the cultural element and all those things

Susan 35:26

is really huge.

Megan 35:27

Yeah.

Susan 35:28

And even, you know, I find that there's clients that I really gel with and there's some that I don't. And I think because of how I've positioned myself on LinkedIn, the people who have similar mindsets, personalities are drawn towards me. In the business, but the people that don't like my style are not, and so it's been quite a good filter actually for I have great clients, you know? They know what they're getting before they sign up, which is good. But that is such a huge thing and, and I've recruited many people over the years and I always recruit based on attitude rather than skill. Because you can teach skills, but you cannot change attitude.

Megan 36:05

Yes, a hundred percent. Technical skills are learnable, you can train people on those. And there's a percentage of attitude that can be changed with a lot of coaching and effort. But not really. Like it's a small percentage.

Susan 36:21

Yeah,

Megan 36:22

but it's not learnable in the same way. You curiosity.

Susan 36:24

Yeah.

Megan 36:24

Yes. You don't

Susan 36:25

have that curiosity. It can be challenging.

Megan 36:27

Yeah. And I think, actually, I think that's a really good point of attitude is a lot of things, but there are some key things. If that's not part of their attitude, then you can't teach them anything. You wouldn't even really be able to teach them technical skills. Yeah, and curiosity is one of those. If they don't have curiosity and that willingness to learn and explore and fail and not know things right away, then it's I won't be able to teach them the technical skills, or if they already have the technical skills, I won't be able to teach them like how to deal with a client or how to, take on one of these challenges. Like, we haven't quite done this one before, but we're gonna figure it out.

Susan 37:07

Yeah. There's, I've worked with some data people that. You just cannot put in front of the clients because they have no customer service skills at all.

Megan 37:15

Mm-hmm.

Susan 37:16

And they're right. And that's the end of it. They're not, we can't, I'm not fixing that. Nope. It's not, there's nothing wrong with it. You know, you're wrong. You're like, this is a client. You can't tell them that. Yeah. but on the flip side just at the end of lockdown, I took on a Kickstarter through the government program. So it was an unemployed under 25-year-old. And he's been the most amazing asset to my business that I've ever had. And he, I had all these people that couldn't even schedule a meeting when they were applying. He had researched the website, done some stuff. We spoke I didn't even ask about his technical skills really. I said, look, this is what I need to. You'll need some time to learn the tool, but do you think you can do it? Yes. Well, I liked him and that's why I recruited him and he's been with me four years now, and. He will just go and figure stuff out. And if he doesn't know how to figure it out, then he'll come to me he's just, he blew me away this week still. I asked him for something and my small mind was like, it's this, but he thought bigger and did even more, and it was just amazing, you know?

Megan 38:25

That's amazing.

Susan 38:25

We learn from each other, you know, I have that all round business experience. And he's the technical one, you know? I'm like, can we do this? He's like, no. I'm like, but why not? It's like, it's not possible. I'm like, okay. But also I invested a lot of time, so for the first two years we had a call every single day and sometimes it would be an hour, sometimes it would be five minutes, and really spent a lot of time getting to know him. We didn't meet for the first three years. In person. He's not even in Guilford. But I think that just proves that it's not about being in the same room, it's about how much time you invest with that person.

Megan 39:03

Mm-hmm.

Susan 39:03

The quality of time you invest with them, you know?

Megan 39:06

Yeah.

Susan 39:07

Just 'cause you're sitting next to someone for eight hours a day doesn't mean you're actually getting any more value from.

Megan 39:12

No, I think some of those things are just easier 'cause you don't have to plan a conversation, you might just turn to someone and have a conversation or overhear them, with a client or what have you. Yeah. And be able to give like a little bit of coaching. So some of those things are definitely easier in person and it's where some of my frustration with the remote hybrid office, I personally am a person who likes going in the office. That's great for me. But one of my frustrations is because of COVID, obviously, everyone worked from home and we've adopted this hybrid, but most companies haven't adopted tools. So now they're like, oh, things aren't working as well, so well, we want everyone come back to the office. It's like. Again, that works for me. And I like that face to face. There's office rooms, right? There's no meeting rooms. Nobody can fit in them. Yeah. But then there's also, everyone's okay, well we'll get teams if they didn't already have it, and video conferencing and we'll get the technical tools. But they didn't think about, well, how do you do things differently? And like you said, in the first couple years you met every single day. And that investment, you just have to think about it in a different way if you're remote but it totally works. Yeah. And you prove that because you have created this great relationship and brought someone in who was new to the business and has been there for four years and is doing amazing.

Susan 40:34

It's both sides, right. I mean I have probably worked from home for about 15 years and I do used to go enjoy going into the office. 'cause you do pick up those conversations. But I'm so much more productive here. You know, it's. Pluses and minuses, and I've got a friend who has to go into the office like three, four days a week, and it's hot desking. So half the time she's not even sitting with her team she's sitting with she doesn't even know. And then that really defeats the purpose, right? Yeah. If you're gonna be in, you should at least be with your team so that you can learn from each other and do stuff.

Megan 41:05

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. All these things haven't been fully thought through in my mind, and then they're like, oh, it's not working. It's like, you didn't really implement anything, so then maybe that's why it's not working the way you thought it would.

Susan 41:19

Yeah. Oh, do you want to know the funniest thing about meeting Luke for the first time?

Megan 41:23

Yes.

Susan 41:23

We've always been eye level.

Megan 41:25

Mm-hmm.

Susan 41:26

Online, and then I meet him and I'm like, hi, he's so tall.

Megan 41:32

That is always the funniest thing you have no idea, how. People's height for sure.

Susan 41:39

Yeah. It's like, oh my goodness.

Megan 41:43

That's so funny.

Susan 41:44

Yeah, so now we've got a running joke Whenever I post that we've met he's low key, he has to be anonymous, so the first time he had banged a menu, we just see his hands and then the next time I'm holding up a cup of coffee, but it's covering his face. So, you know, he is there, but nobody knows what he looks like.

Megan 42:00

That's really cute.

Susan 42:01

Yeah,

Megan 42:01

that's like a good fun inside joke, but also he's

Susan 42:06

involved, but without having to be public.

Megan 42:07

Yeah. I love that. That's

Susan 42:09

love that because I do want to give him recognition even if he

Megan 42:11

doesn't

Susan 42:12

see it, but yeah.

Megan 42:14

That's awesome. So when you look back on this really cool career, what do you think, are some of the common threads or is there one common thread that you see that go through? Like what are those commonalities you see in this journey?

Susan 42:30

Definitely determination and optimism

Megan 42:34

a hundred percent.

Susan 42:35

I definitely can't do jobs that I am not engaged mentally. Or enjoy. You know, I've had friends that have stayed in jobs for years that they've hated, and I'm like, I can't barely last a week when I'm not. Into a job I have to go. So impatience, I guess, but maybe that's helped me too.

Megan 42:57

Mm-hmm.

Susan 42:58

I think it was always going to be that I was gonna end up working for myself. I just didn't really realize it or I didn't have the experience in my twenties to actually be able to go and do that. And yeah, it's always been about enjoyment of what I do. That really fulfills me.

Megan 43:16

Yeah.

Susan 43:18

And always pushing myself, not just staying in, I know I say the comfort zone, but that's more familiarity than a comfort zone. Yeah. Which

Megan 43:26

is different. Yeah.

Susan 43:27

Especially this book coming out next month, you know, I am not sales or marketer. I've written a whole book on cleaning that data and I know data well. So I'm comfortable and confident in my ability to clean data, but what I didn't know was how sales and marketing people would receive it. And the people that have seen it so far said it's really good and really enjoyable and very easy to read. So I'm really proud of that. And yeah, just constantly just pushing myself to do the next thing that I didn't think I could do.

Megan 44:02

Yeah.

Susan 44:02

I've built a tool. I've built a tool. I am not technical. I never thought that would be in my plans, you know? Because I was, I guess as well, I am a bit of a control freak and a perfectionist. And to let go and trust other people like Luke to to go and build stuff. And you know, I love to know how stuff works to just accept that I can't know how everything works and understand everything I have to trust and let go. A crazy wild ride. And I've stopped even thinking like, what's it gonna be like this time next year? I'm like, let's just do a day a time and see what happens. There's some crazy stuff gonna happen this year that I can't even talk about yet, and because you just, I just grab these opportunities when they come, you know, because they might not come around again. I might not be the coolest data cleaning person in a couple of years, there might be a contender to my throne. So, you know, you have to make the most of it while you're relevant and interesting.

Megan 44:59

Yeah, I love that. Just grabbing opportunities and you are such a, positive and optimistic person. Like you feel that, and I know obviously we're from Artemis, the same community, Yeah, you can feel it even in the WhatsApp chat.

Susan 45:14

I know I'm very cheeky and I do love my gifts. But even if I'm having the worst day and someone says, how are you? And I'll be like, I'm crap. I'll say it with a smile on my face because that's not their problem. That's on me. That's me having a crap day. It doesn't mean to say they are. But life's too short.

Megan 45:33

Mm-hmm. And for the same reason, grab those opportunities and and you never know what will come and what it'll lead to. I mean, your own journey is a testament to that,

Susan 45:44

honestly. So I've done a lot of stuff for free. I like to give back particularly to like women in anything in female communities and people are like, no, you should charge for this and that and the next thing. And it's like, I benefit in other ways. It's a little bit of visibility for me or my business. I can help someone out and it doesn't cost anything but my time. I'm more than happy to do that. And then something will come back to me in a different space or way. And yeah, by not focusing on the money and the profits and stuff, you know? If I could be not broke if I just was commercially minded, but, I'm all about having fun giving, giving it back, paying it forward, getting people involved, and it will come round eventually, you know?

Megan 46:33

Yeah.

Susan 46:33

It's like I think everyone's in such a straight path to get from A to B, right? I'm really enjoying the journey and the windy roads and all the bits, the off route paths that weren't on the map, but that came up and, you know, I think by not having too many strict plans and roadmaps it's allowed me to do a lot more than I ever could have imagined.

Megan 46:55

I think so many of us just feel like. That's the only option or way to do it is that sort of straight path. Even in the beginning of your career, when you were talking about in the beginning, you're like, oh, sales director, I'm aiming for that. But you didn't actually really enjoy sales and if you had just pursued that, all these other things wouldn't have happened. And it's being open to those opportunities and the winding road of it. 'cause that's where the fun is, but also things you could never have dreamt of.

Susan 47:25

Yeah. And your gut. Yeah. Like my gut has never let me down. I haven't always listened to it. And then I've regretted when I haven't, I had a friend today and she turned down a job offer because something didn't quite feel right. And I was like you absolutely did the right thing. Because Yeah, there's nothing worse than being stuck somewhere that you don't want to be, that you don't enjoy. And especially in the beginning when you've just got it and you're like, you feel trapped because now you're stuck there.

Megan 47:54

'cause you've accepted it, so you feel like you have to at least give it a chance.

Susan 47:58

Yeah.

Megan 48:00

So you're, really, you're a multihyphenate at this point. 'cause you're a business owner, you're an author, you have a TED Talk. What do you think 15, 16-year-old you would think about what you're doing now?

Susan 48:14

Her mind would be blown. I think, I think I'm more stubborn than I always realized and determined, but I think she would be just unimaginable no, I don't believe you. 10 years ago when I was thinking about setting this up like about two and a half books really? 'cause there's two traditions of one book, a TEDx talk speaking I've act. I've got courses on Pluralsight in O'Reilly as well. Like I've done so much and I'm just like, oh yeah, but I could do more. And like I never really stopped to look back and go, wow, you did a lot. That's

Megan 48:57

impressive.

Susan 48:58

And it is, there's definitely, it's that saying yes. Like even if I've never done it before, I'm just gonna figure it out.

Megan 49:04

Yeah. I love that. And

Susan 49:05

who was what a year or two Susan will look like.

Megan 49:09

So is there like a piece of advice you wish you could go back in time and give yourself?

Susan 49:14

Yeah, definitely. And it's all around focus on the things you're good at rather than trying to fix the things you're not. So I wish I'd not wasted so much time on the maths and just focused on doing the stuff that I was actually better at. But then at the same time, if I had done that, I wouldn't end up doing this now. I don't think I would've taken a very different path. But that is, that's probably the one thing, yeah. Focus on the things that you're actually good at. Don't try and fix the things that you're struggling with.

Megan 49:41

I think that's really good advice the more we focus on our strengths, it doesn't mean don't try the other things, but if by focusing on our strengths, a lot of times you kind of lift up other skills because there's more than one way to do something. And it's a lot more fun to lean into the things you're good at.

Susan 50:03

Yeah. I nearly forgot to mention this, this always makes me laugh at university, I did go and see the careers advisor said, um, you know, I really don't know what I want to do when I graduate. And his answer was, well, I can't tell you what to do. That was my career advice, so very

Megan 50:18

helpful from the career advisor.

Susan 50:21

Even if he'd said to me, think about what you really enjoy. And what are you good at? And focus on those things. Yeah. That would've made such a difference. And I just left feeling completely shellshocked and lost okay, so I'm doing this myself. Then.

Megan 50:41

Yeah. 'cause that's not advice at all.

Susan 50:44

But it's the attitude too. Like, well, I can't tell you what to do. I mean, he was probably just having a bad day. Right. But that has stayed with me for over 20 years. I remember that.

Megan 50:53

I can't even imagine. 'cause you went in for advice. I remember that's that feeling of being lost in university and being like what's next? Like I don't, I don't know.

Susan 51:04

But also you're literally getting paid to advise people on

Megan 51:07

Yeah. That's his job.

Susan 51:08

And that's your advice,

Megan 51:10

so not helpful.

Susan 51:12

Yes.

Megan 51:14

I think we kind of talked about it already, but what's, when you look forward, what are you hoping for? What are you excited about? It could be like in the short term, it could be the long term. What are you excited about?

Susan 51:28

Stability. It's been a really bumpy, unpredictable couple of years. I want to stabilize the business again, not worry about how I'm gonna pay my bills next month.

Megan 51:38

Mm-hmm.

Susan 51:38

For a little while. this year has already started way better than the whole of last year. So we're in a good position to amazing to kickstart the year. I want to grow and build my tool. Eventually I want to scale and sell that. It's called Samification so that's like my big thing. And then just, focus on promoting the books and stuff a little bit more this year as well. And yeah, just getting the business back on track.

Megan 52:02

Awesome.

Susan 52:02

Yeah, there's a couple of short term things and then there's like longer term things as well, so, but just lots of seeds and seeing what sprouts out.

Megan 52:11

I love that. And it's again, just getting that stable foundation and then keep pursuing all those amazing opportunities. I'm going

Susan 52:17

straight back. What about you?

Megan 52:20

Oh, that's a super good question. My big focus right now is on getting my indefinite leave to remain. And then I feel free to figure out what I wanna do when I grow up. So

Susan 52:32

no pressure though.

Megan 52:34

No,

Susan 52:34

It's okay if you don't wanna know. I just, I know just that I'm good at this one thing and that's what I wanna do and like literally apart from that, I have no plans, like

Megan 52:41

mm-hmm.

Susan 52:43

And it's great. And I think I love that.

Megan 52:44

I think that's kind of what I wanna do is just have a period of time and do some of that exploration. 'cause I've spent over 20 years in the industry and have loved it. And I found it by accident, but I'm like, okay, but I've spent a lot of time here. Now it's time to maybe just do some exploration. Yeah. I have the podcast now. I'm doing some writing. Like what are some of the other things that I might find joy in. What else? Like Exactly. It's

Susan 53:11

exciting. I love

Megan 53:12

it. Yeah, it is very exciting. I should be able to submit my application in the next couple weeks, so

Susan 53:19

Oh, congratulations.

Megan 53:20

And then, yeah, so it's exciting. So assuming that works out, which it will no, it absolutely, I'm very excited.

Susan 53:26

Actually, and so one of the things throughout my whole career is I really truly do have faith that it'll work out in the end, right? What you're meant to be, where you're meant to be, and so, will get your citizenship but if you didn't, it would be because there's something better waiting for you on the other side.

Megan 53:46

it's gonna be okay. Whatever happens, it's gonna be okay and

Susan 53:49

it's meant to be whatever happens.

Megan 53:51

I'm very much, I have a similar attitude about that, of, things will work out the way they work out Thank you so much, Susan. You're, as I've said multiple times, your journey is so interesting and so cool and and such a good reminder of, there is a traditional way to do things, but it's not the only way and so much power can come from not doing it the traditional way because you are in this unique position of being the translator, which you couldn't have been in that position if you had j followed a traditional route.

Susan 54:26

No. If I hadn't gotten that job once the business closed, I wouldn't have fallen into data. Everyone's into data now, but it wouldn't be to the same extent and just honing my knowledge in on that one specific area. And also believing in me, right? Believing that when nobody else was doing this as a business and everyone said, that's ridiculous. I went with it because my gut was like, this is a thing.

Megan 54:51

And again, like things that traditionally might've felt like obstacles. Like math and data sound like they should go hand in hand, but actually they don't necessarily need to. They're not. No.

Susan 55:04

And then like eventually get a business and hire someone that can do that stuff and then you don't have to worry about it. Exactly

Megan 55:10

a hundred percent.

Susan 55:11

Oh, I've loved this. I really have. I could just talk for hours.

Megan 55:15

Well, you have a really interesting journey and such good advice and experiences to share. I also could just keep chatting, Yeah, this was such a great conversation. Thank you so much Susan, for making time and sharing your story and, I can't wait to share it with the world.

Susan 55:32

I know. Me too. Thank you.

Megan 55:34

Thank you.

55:36

I enjoyed chatting with Susan so much. Three of the things I took away from our conversation were one resilience. Susan has faced down some big obstacles and setbacks from her struggle with maths to facing bankruptcy earlier in her career, but she kept going with determination and optimism and came out with a sense that things will work out two authenticity. This isn't something we explicitly talked about much, but something that always comes through about Susan in every interaction is that she is herself and that warmth and humor always comes through. And as she mentioned, it was what ultimately made her stand out on LinkedIn when she was launching her business. Three. There isn't just one way to success. Susan's path to data isn't traditional. She doesn't have a math or technical background, and she found herself in data by accident after she had to wind up her shop. But she found her calling and her winding route gives her a different perspective and skills that ultimately differentiate her and her business. Lastly, Susan's advice to our younger self to focus more on the things she's good at is something we can adopt at any age. So often our strengths can compensate for our weaknesses or help you find an alternative route. And it's always a little bit more fun to focus on the things that we're good at. thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.