Jennifer Makkreel: Building with Purpose in Construction Management

S4E8: Jennifer Makkreel dreamt of building bridges in high school and pursued an Engineering degree and while being an Engineer wasn't ultimately for her, she is building buildings. 

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. My guest today is Jennifer Makkreel, took a dream to build bridges into a career in construction management and is currently the Director of Capital Projects at the Ellison Institute of Technology.

Megan 0:41

All right. Should we get started?

Jennifer 0:43

Go for it.

Megan 0:44

Okay, cool. First of all, thank you for joining. I appreciate it.

Jennifer 0:48

You're welcome.

Megan 0:49

I know we've talked about it a few times before and so it's exciting to finally find time in our schedules to do it and talk about your career and yeah, I'm excited.

Jennifer 0:58

Yeah, me too.

Megan 1:01

I always start with the beginning of like, when you were small, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Did you have a specific thing in mind or did you cycle through a bunch of different things? What did you wanna be when you grew up?

Jennifer 1:15

I'm often reminded of the fact that when I was quite young, I wanted to be Prime Minister dream big. And, I think that a lot of that came from early days when my dad took me campaigning. He was quite active in a political party. And, going around and seeing how it is that local democracy works and understanding how it is that a really big change can be made. I think also I was really quite bossy, so being able to be the boss of everybody sounded quite appealing. But I realized that politics weren't really necessarily gonna be for me. I absolutely hate public speaking. Which people who know me always think they're like, really, you're actually quite good at it. And I think, oh no, I despise it. And I couldn't imagine having a job where every day I do something, I have to do something that I really hate. And so whilst I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older, I really hate it. So, yeah, that was the early ambition. But, moved quickly away from that as I got a bit older.

Megan 2:18

So since politics isn't something you pursued, how did you then make decisions when it came time to make decisions about whether or not to go to university and what to take in university, that sort of thing.

Jennifer 2:32

So I did quite well academically. And I was always really encouraged by my teachers. I was putting gifted programs, which allowed a little bit further exploration and wider subjects. I thought about architecture for a time. I love the idea of being part of building things. But then I realized that. I am not the person who necessarily comes up with the vision in the way that an architect does. I can't necessarily see that creative solution to a project a problem like that. But I was really. Quite good at school, in math and, science. And so engineering really felt like it was gonna be a good path for me and I was encouraged to explore those subjects. So going into that that was. That felt quite natural to study that at university. My parents always wanted me to really push myself academically to become something that was gonna be a profession. And really they wanted me to have big dreams when it came to a career. So university never really felt like it was an option. It just felt like the natural course that. We all took so I guess I, I kind of fell into university in that way. It didn't ever feel like that was gonna be, you know, an option. It was what was a university gonna mean?

Megan 3:54

Mm-hmm. And just to throw in how long we've known each other. I mean, I remember in high school you talking about wanting to build bridges and things, which was a funny ambition in high school.

Jennifer 4:06

In high school. It is. And I think it's, it is funny because, you know, I wanted to be involved in things that really felt. Monumental and significant. And and I just always loved engineering. The kind of way that bridges span spaces and skyscrapers, you know, can reach so, so high and all that kind of really cool things that come from engineering. And so yeah, so that's what prompted me to pursue that.

Megan 4:35

Amazing. So you did take engineering in university?

Jennifer 4:38

I did, I did. I took civil engineering. I did a program that had a co-op, which meant that I could work whilst I also studied which was really helpful because then that meant that I could explore what my career opportunities were gonna be while I was also learning. And I think, I mean, if I could ever encourage anybody to do anything, that was really helpful because you were getting the real world experience as well as being in a classroom, taking exams and stuff. But university was not the straightforward path that I'd hoped I did not do as well as I had wanted to. Coming out of high school I was, you know reaching really high academic achievements. I go to university and my second semester I get really sick with the flu quite early in the semester and miss a bunch of classes and really struggled to catch up and ended up failing a math class. Which had been my subject, I'd always done really well in math, won math contests and, had really high marks. And so that was a bit of a, a bit of a kick. And ended up in academic probation by the end of the first year because of that sort of stuff. And it's an example that my sister uses now. she's a math teacher and she tells her class like, you can fail math and still do well. So uh, I, I appreciate that. I can be a learning example, but it meant that I had to really find a different way to learn to catch up. And it was a great support system at the university that helped me do that. And I was able to, instead of doing a four and a half year degree, did a five year degree adding a business minor to it as well, just to round it out a little bit more. And yeah, so I ended up having a really positive experience in the end, but it was definitely not straightforward. It definitely had bumps.

Megan 6:25

The jump from high school to university can be quite difficult. The learning environment is very different. And then on top of it, if you are away from home, which I know for you, you were that also adds complexity 'cause it's not like you're just learning school, you're learning how to be an adult and take care of yourself and all of those things.

Jennifer 6:45

Yeah. Yeah. It was an engineering engineering programs in Canada are very intense both, academically and also socially. And that was great on one hand, but of course also you're learning how to balance those those pressures. And you know, the whole engineering song of we can demolish 40 beers. You will learn very quickly that actually you can't. But it was good. It was a very supportive university. The professors were great. They were really keen to make sure that nobody fell behind. And I had a really great group with me on that journey. That we all realized it's a very intensive program. You can't do it alone. You really have to get a support system around you.

Megan 7:27

That's so important. Amazing in a way, it's hard to have to learn that right from the beginning, but amazing to learn that so early in your journey.

Jennifer 7:35

Yeah.

Megan 7:37

So what was your first job out of school? You did co-op. So did that lead to your first job or what was your first job outta school?

Jennifer 7:45

Yeah, so a co-op was great because it helped me to partly it helped me when I was about halfway through my engineering degree and realized I didn't actually wanna be an engineer, which was interesting. What I realized was that I loved the idea the of building things, but the idea of sitting behind a computer and just crunching numbers to try and design the span or the reinforced concrete design or whatever it is, it was just not. Was not for me. And so my co-op placements were actually with a main contractor, one of the largest main contractors in North America. And that gave me exposure to construction project management. I first started out on a very big kind of mega project as a assistant land surveyor. And that was a big eyeopening experience that was still back in the days where there was pictures of naked women up in the cabins and the trek to the ladies' bathroom was quite extensive across a major site. So it was quite a big eye-opening experience for somebody who was, you know, 20. But what I realized was that the actual construction project itself was really interesting and seeing it change and evolve and being a part of that I loved. So I ended up doing my work terms with them, but when I graduated, I moved to Australia, so, I obviously wasn't gonna be working for them. And I did a four month stint working for a company that was doing micro tunneling, so putting in a gravity fed sewer to replace a pumping station. As a project engineer working there, my co-op experience had been what got me the job, which was really good. Mm-hmm. And that was, that was a whole different experience, having to shake your work boots out to make sure that there was no spiders in them. And, there was definitely some stuff about that site that I will never forget working on. The guys were great to quite a small team. And then the next job that I had, which was completely unrelated, was working at a preschool. just being abroad, you take the jobs that are on offer. And I often say that I learned more working in that preschool about how to manage people than I could have with, 10 years anywhere else. Yeah. It was a real true exposure to human behavior, like how to actually negotiate in a way that was simple. You know, I'm, I'm seeing a lot of red, I'd like to see some green. So that was, that was great. And then moving back to Canada, I did go back to the same, main contractor. I'd, I developed relationships there that they were really keen to have me back. They wanted to start me off, not just in a graduate position. They wanted to put me in a higher role. And so I went back there, but that was that was a lot of pressure. That was a lot of pressure. That was a lot of hours and I would often be working till, you know, 10, 11 o'clock at night, working weekends. It was pretty intense. And so I think that I found that, it wasn't that it was that much different than it was in co-op, but it just felt more permanent. Mm-hmm. And I think that was quite, quite a challenge.

Megan 10:50

It's a different like frame of reference, I guess because With co-op, it's, this is for a limited time.

Jennifer 10:55

Yeah.

Megan 10:55

Like I can put in this effort or it can be this, it's time boxed versus like, well wait, this is my job. Is this what my life will look like?

Jennifer 11:04

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it there was definitely something about this will never end. It just felt very very permanent. And I think that made me really reflect on it quite differently than obviously the co-op side of it. In some ways it was really a fantastic company to work for. It was an employee owned company that really made me understand the values of how you can work in a corporate world, but still be trying to look after people. But it was definitely something where I had to take a bit of time to reflect on whether this was the path that I wanted.

Megan 11:37

Yeah. So, how did you do that? Because that's a lot of hours and then seeing that stretch out for your life and being like, well. Will it ever end? Is this one what, what it'll be? what did you do? How did you make decisions and either within the business or if you decided to move on?

Jennifer 11:58

I started to look for opportunities outside the business. I think what I realized was that I needed to take a break from that organization and, the intensity and knowing me that I'm the kind of person that when I'm given, an open road and a huge challenge, I will just keep pushing myself. And whereas a lot of people are much better at the kind of, I'll take a break, I'll slow down. I am just seeing this. And a lot of that was self-driven. And so the next opportunity that came along was to work client side for the legislative assembly of Ontario. And that was an incredible opportunity because it was combining my love of politics. My love of construction.

Megan 12:41

I was just thinking that.

Jennifer 12:42

Yeah, exactly. And when I first went there, I was like, wow, it's kind of like being surrounded by rock stars if you love politics in the way that they're rock stars. And one of the first projects was you know, investigating something, a small issue that would happen in the member of provincial parliaments office. That was the one that I had campaigned for when I first was falling in love with politics. So it had come kind of full circle in that way, which which was great. But also it was my first step into being client side in project delivery. And that was really great. It made me realize how important the role of a client is on a project setting the tone you know, not just the technical kind of making sure that the boxes are ticked, from a client's brief perspective, but actually to lead the team, and make sure that the role that you're playing is contributing more than just where are the bricks and mortar going. It was actually a much bigger thing than I was starting to see.

Megan 13:42

Yeah, in a way it's their project if they're the client. And they might be holding together not just the contractor side, but other stakeholders that are part of the delivering the project.

Jennifer 13:54

Exactly. And you start to feel that what you're doing is something that is about driving a different purpose. So when I was working on the contractor side, you could have that feeling. But realistically the job of the contractor is to deliver the project safely and inevitably to make a profit. Mm-hmm. And, sometimes that meant having really difficult conversations with supply chain and to, to hold the company line. Whereas now I was, especially because I had gone public sector, it was really about bigger purpose. It wasn't about the dollars that were being, profited. It was actually about making sure that the dollars were being spent really wisely. It was public money. You wanted to make sure that you were looking after it from that respect. But also, I always felt that my whole thing was I want people to make a living just not a killing. Right. If they're able to be honest about how it is that they need to be making a profit, I'm happy to help support that if we're all gonna be transparent and and in the public sector, not everybody has that attitude. Some people think that the job of a public sector client is to screw people down as much as they possibly can, and I've never have seen that that's a helpful way of delivering. So, it was really, it was really good to have that, experience. And again, I worked with a really great team. I had a great boss. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed being able to walk around the legislature when nobody was there and go and stand in the legislative chamber and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of neat.

Megan 15:27

It's always cool when your place of work is a place that there's a bit of, like, oh, I'm, I'm here. I'm behind the scenes. Like it's, I don't know. Yeah. I dunno if I'm explaining that, but like it's, no,

Jennifer 15:40

it's true. It's so true. There was definitely moments where I would stand there and go. I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I get to stand in this place. There are people who I've looked up to who are right around the corner. So that was cool.

Megan 15:57

That is cool. So maybe tell me a little bit about what you're doing now and then that journey from the legislature in Ontario to what you're doing now. 'cause I know it's not in Canada anymore.

Jennifer 16:11

Yes. I moved over, when my then husband was going to study. We made the choice that that was gonna take precedence in our marriage and our lives. And we moved to Oxford for him to do a PhD. And so I started working for Oxfordshire County Council managing, school building projects and children's centers and libraries, and that was really neat. Within three months of arriving, they asked me if I would take on also another aspect, which was the overall management of the portfolio of projects, the program. I always loved a challenge, so I took that on too. And that was great. Unfortunately the, my marriage didn't last. We split up after living in, in the UK after about a year. But I loved what I was doing and I loved the life that I was building in the UK. And it was really interesting for me and I just thought, well, I made this choice and I really wanna see it through. And so I kept working there. Opportunities kept coming up. Within the county council there was the opportunity to lead the program management office. So overseeing all the projects building that, that function and then working with the wider team. When we were outsourcing, and developing a whole new outsourced model, which was quite innovative. And so that was really exciting. That was a lot of hours, a lot of hard work. But it really, it was a challenge that I enjoyed. The team that I kept working with that evolved over time. They were so great. It wasn't that everybody was great, but the team that I was working with, yeah, were really fantastic. And I always say that with great people, you can do just about anything. And that really felt like it was what we were doing. And so I felt like that role really let me grow and develop, but also learn how to work in a very different culture. The UK whilst we might speak the same language it's very different working here than it is in Canada. And there's definitely a lot of translation that I still do in my head. Even after so many years.

Megan 18:14

Yeah.

Jennifer 18:15

So that was the county council and then living in Oxford, you are surrounded by the university. And the university is just the most incredible institution. It is 900 years old. It is the most spectacular buildings between the university and the colleges. And, when an opportunity came up to work as the Deputy Head of Capital projects there I was so excited, when I applied and then was offered the job and. Again, it was, it was working with a fantastic team. I had the best boss ever Richard who I will always give a shout out to Richard. We work together for 12 years, side by side. And we are very opposite people. And that I think we really respected each other's strengths and I think that's part of the reason we worked so well together. But I learned so much from him in that role about how to lead and how to work with people and how to draw out the best in people. And that was. That was an incredible opportunity to work there. And in 2018, one of the projects that I was working on, we started to source some donor funding. Uh. And the vice Chancellor was able to secure with our support a significant donation from an American philanthropist, which then led us to being able to, deliver an incredible project. And I worked on that project all the way from. The material to help, secure the gift all the way through developing the design. And then finally building the building. And that was that was just such an amazing experience. Starting in 2018 and the doors finally opening on my birthday, in 2025, which was a nice moment. It was always a bit of pressure for the team that mine and the academic lead's birthday was, which is the same day they had to have the doors open on that day. Nothing, nothing like a deadline to keep people motivated.

Megan 20:21

It's amazing to to see something from idea to completion and,

Jennifer 20:27

yeah.

Megan 20:28

Especially something so big and so well known in and of itself, but then part of such a world famous institution is pretty amazing.

Jennifer 20:40

It was. It was, it was incredible. And it led to me, I, I was featured in a magazine, which was pretty cool too. I was even on the cover. That, that still blows my mind. I mean, it's Construction Management magazine, so it's not Vogue, but still, I sent it to my sister and my niece and nephew and they sent me a little video saying, congratulations on being construction famous. And I thought, that's it. That's it. I've nailed it. But it, it gave me, far more opportunity to really develop leadership skills and. Being able to lead that team in a way that delivered such a fantastic result is something that I will never, ever take for granted. That was such a huge opportunity. And I worked with an incredible, lead on the construction side, from our contractor who also I learned so much from. And so again, just finding these people that I was constantly able to learn from. The academic lead, he was amazing at how it is that he led the team being able to really draw out people's strengths. My construction lead, he was very good at being able to draw a team together but hold people to account. And there was definitely a moment where when we finished the building, we all had a few tears that we'd gotten it over the line and you really felt like you were part of something that was really special.

Megan 22:04

That's amazing. And having had a little tour of the building.

Jennifer 22:08

Yeah.

Megan 22:08

Yeah, it's pretty spectacular.

Jennifer 22:10

Yeah, the gala performance was last week and there was a moment, there was a ballerina performing in the concert hall. And, it just took my breath away to feel this special space that, that our team had created being used in exactly the purpose that it was supposed to be with the, you know, just so, magical that moment.

Megan 22:34

Yeah. Amazing. After you delivered this really amazing building, what happened, sometimes there can be kind of like, okay, I've done this great thing. And now a bit of now what?

Jennifer 22:48

Yeah, it's, it was definitely something I'd started thinking about before the end of the project because there was gonna be a change of my role. I wasn't gonna be leading a big project anymore. I had been, there had been other projects I'd been leading. And I had been leading a team that whole time too. But this was certainly something that was really inspiring me in a different way. And when an opportunity came up almost at the time when the project was finishing and this opportunity arises, here locally in Oxford to take the next step in my career, I couldn't not apply for that. It was working for another research institution. It's working supporting development of incredible science. But it was at the beginning of their journey where they needed someone to help deliver an entire master plan. And I thought, wow, that sounds like it's right up my street. I've only been there for eight weeks, so it's very new. And I was so sad after nearly 12 years at the university to leave. I had built such a wonderful network there. And with so many people where we joked that it's doesn't feel like a place of work, it feels like family. So when you, when you're leaving, it's not dissimilar to that feeling when you were leaving to go off to university. There were people that I had worked with for the full 12 years, and that's, that's, I don't think that's always the case. I don't think there are teams that stay together for that long. And, so, it was sad to go, I'm gonna start to get all emotional again 'cause it's sad to leave. Yeah. It's very

Megan 24:31

bittersweet.

Jennifer 24:32

It is. And it was to the point where I had been sitting on a committee for nine years. Nine years to sit on a committee as a long time. But at Oxford, of course, it's a 900 year old institution and it prides itself on longevity. So a nine year stint on a committee. And, someone made, homemade cakes and stuff on my last day because they Oh, that's nice. They, wanted to celebrate that moment, and it was just you really felt like it was special. So it was really hard to leave. It was hard to make that decision, but this opportunity was one that I could just not look away from it was going to take that next step, but also what I discovered was that it was a lot of people that I'd already been working with that were there. Yeah. And that meant that a lot of great people, a lot of fantastic project managers and people working for some of the same mean contractor team that had been delivering my fantastic last project. So it was just so exciting to see those people in a different role.

Megan 25:32

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer 25:33

And then the client team who I connected with immediately, so the people who were gonna be my colleagues I was fortunate enough to have spent some time with them before taking on the job. And I just felt like I fit right into that. A lot of them were North American and a lot of them were North American without as much British experience. So I felt like, I was like, oh, I could be an interpreter for you. Yeah. So that was great. But, it is just been, it is just been fantastic. I smile every day. It's wonderful to be a part of such an exciting, such an exciting organization, but such a wonderful team.

Megan 26:10

That's amazing. And I imagine a bit overwhelming 'cause it's early days, there's always so much information to learn at the beginning. Oh, so Oh yeah.

Jennifer 26:18

Oh yeah. I mean, it's someone said it's like drinking from a fire hose and I thought that's not a bad analogy, but I always think that it's a bit more like I'm learning to water ski when you're crutched down and you're holding onto the rope and you're just trying to stand up. But basically you're just taking on water and at some point I hopefully will be standing up, but right now it just feels like, oh my goodness, that's just a lot. But it's so supportive. The team is so supportive in helping me to find my feet quite quickly. And yeah, I've enjoyed the early days. I'm sure that there will be challenges ahead. There always is. Wouldn't be a good job if there weren't

Megan 26:54

for sure. Amazing. Hearing that journey till now. When you look back, and obviously this is with hindsight, so you wouldn't necessarily know in the moment, but having the opportunity to look back. Are there common threads or connections that you see throughout this career journey?

Jennifer 27:16

Absolutely. I think I have been really fortunate to have found people who are really great at advocating for me and from whom I can learn. That's been a common thread. Working in a way that really I've, I felt, supported my values. I always wanted to feel like I was part of something bigger if I was gonna be working. And that meant that I needed to feel connected to the purpose of what I was doing. And so that's been definitely a common thread. It hasn't been the same purpose necessarily, which has also been interesting. But it's been something where every day I can feel like I'm excited to go to work in some way, even when every day is not great. It's not some kind of all roses career. But you feel like getting through tough times and working on hard problems. You're doing it for the values that are supported through the purpose. So. That's been something that's been a common thread. And I think the other thing is that I've always been really fortunate to work with incredible people. I don't know what anybody else's career journey is like. I mean, I listen to your podcast all the time and hear about it, but I don't know how they have found, the teams that they've worked with, and I have always just felt so fortunate that here are these people coming together randomly thrown together. It's not like there's some kind of magical algorithm that creates teams. It's oftentimes just kind of happenstance in so many ways. But there are just amazing people that I have been able to work with and that has made every part of that journey. Easier. And yeah. So I think that's definitely a common thread too.

Megan 29:02

All those things are so important I think in everyone's career and career journey. So that's amazing that you've had that. But I imagine also you are in an industry where there aren't a lot of women, so to also Yeah. Find those sponsors and be in really great teams.

Jennifer 29:20

Yeah.

Megan 29:20

That. Is even more important, I would imagine.

Jennifer 29:24

It, it is so true. I mean, the industry has changed quite a bit from the first time that I went on site and there was still pictures of naked women up on the walls. Thankfully, that's not a thing anymore. But also the contracting company that was delivering my last project and is delivering one of my projects now they have a drive to, bring in gender parity. So bringing in far more women. I am very heavily involved in the Chartered Institute of Building. I have been the chair of the local committee for eight years. I've been,, I'm vice chair of the client steering group, and a huge part of what it is that I've been advocating for in that role has been greater involvement for women, and part of the reason that I believe that women have struggled to find careers in construction has been the historic walls that have been put up. But even with those walls coming down, the fact that construction has not always been as friendly for women who are taking time off or balancing family. And one of the things that I've loved is seeing how companies are starting to do better at supporting men in those journeys because if you're supporting men in taking time off, and if you're supporting men in taking their fair share on raising kids, then all of a sudden it's not just about what women are doing. And so parity becomes a far easier thing. So I'm, I'm really a big advocate for greater involvement for women in the industry, but I also realize that. That doesn't happen overnight, and it happens with a lot of people supporting other women. And I had, in my last role, I hired two women who were a bit younger than me to take on roles of program management. And both of them when I was leaving had said that they were sad that I was going because working with me as a woman in the industry had been something that had drawn them to the role. And so, I'm staying actively engaged with them to help support them even though we're no longer working together. So yeah, it's something where I have, I've seen a lot of change in the past 20 something years. But there's still way more road to run on that.

Megan 31:36

Yeah, for sure. And I love that you're active in it, but that you're still supporting former teammates and colleagues and keeping that network strong and engaged. So That's amazing.

Jennifer 31:49

And I've seen that with the way that women have supported me as well. When I've encountered other women just being able to network. It doesn't necessarily have to be in a mentoring role specifically, but just being able to get people together to share experiences and be able to then see ways through that perhaps you might not otherwise, unless you had that group too around you.

Megan 32:14

Yeah. It's helpful to have people who maybe have experienced a similar thing or have a similar perspective because they're also in a similar situation. So having that is really helpful.

Jennifer 32:30

Yeah.

Megan 32:31

So when you think about 15-year-old, 16-year-old Jennifer, what do you think she would think about what you're doing now?

Jennifer 32:41

That's a really good question. I think she'd probably, she'd probably be impressed that I am where I am. But I'm not. I've not taken a path that I thought that I was going to. You know, my path has been very different from what the 15, 16-year-old me thought that my path in life was gonna be. But hopefully she'd be pretty proud of my accomplishments and the life that I've been able to build. And the career that I've been able to build in a different country that's not always easy. And I think she'd be thinking I'm pretty badass at some of the stuff.

Megan 33:20

Since I knew you when you were 15. I agree. I Think she definitely would. And the path maybe is different and maybe the way it you're doing the thing is different.

Jennifer 33:31

Yeah.

Megan 33:32

But in so many ways, you are kind of doing what you talked about in high school, you're not building bridges and you're maybe not on the engineering side per se. Yeah. But you are building really impressive. Yeah, buildings and yeah, so I think she would be proud.

Jennifer 33:50

One of the projects that's on my master plan that I'm helping to deliver now is a bridge, and I definitely have. It's a little pedestrian bridge, but I definitely had a moment of like, I always wanted to build a bridge. So, you know, it does come full circle in some ways and that's really great.

Megan 34:10

That's amazing.

Jennifer 34:11

Yeah, it, I did have a little chuckle on that, the.

Megan 34:14

That's funny. So along the same lines if you could go back in time and give yourself a piece of advice, whether it's to 15-year-old you or at any point in your career journey what advice would you like to go back and give yourself?

Jennifer 34:30

I think the advice that I'd like to give myself is probably to, just let it ride, it's. You try to plan everything out. You try to feel like you've got a five year plan and a 10 year plan. And my life took a really dramatic turn when I was in this country, not after a very long time. And I let go of the plan. And by letting go of the plan, I was able to actually see the opportunities in a different way. That I didn't feel that they had to fit into a particular box. And that I think, has allowed me to really be pushed and pushed myself. And also to take things on in a way that I always felt was still really aligned to my values. So, I didn't feel like I was ticking a box just for some list's sake or someone else's expectations. Correct. And so you just go with it and don't worry too much if it's not the plan.

Megan 35:33

Being a bit more open and the widening of it. So staying in line with your values rather than, it's very easy to be like, okay, I have this career plan, I need this skillset to get there. I need to have this on my cv. Like that, check the box. You might be able to get those things really fast if you don't worry about the rest of the things. But actually I think in lots of ways that just doesn't work. Partly 'cause it doesn't align with your values. So then it's either uncomfortable or you don't enjoy it or it can even push you into abandoning that career altogether versus there's a balance of I want to continue to grow and get these skills and these, CV things, but I wanna enjoy where I wanna work. I wanna be, building towards something that aligns with my values and be open to things you don't even know because you only can put the things on your checklist, the things you know and you can plan for, but you can't actually plan for everything.

Jennifer 36:39

It's so true, and I think, I've heard so many journeys on your podcast of people who have, really taken different directions and stuff. And I'm always in awe of that and people who see different opportunities and take different steps. And and I do reflect on whether or not that is something that I've missed. Did I miss opportunities as a result of feeling like the path that I was on, I was excited to explore. And I think it might be a bit more rare to pick a direction and stay within some kind of bounds of it. It's not, it certainly has not been linear. But I'm still doing the work in construction that I'd originally hoped to do, which, which is fantastic. I mean, I feel really passionate about the industry. I feel passionate about supporting other people. The role of the client in the industry and the importance that, that role has in delivering safe quality buildings. In light of what's happened here in the, in this country, the awful experience of the Grenfell tragedy really highlighted the importance of people taking responsibility in these roles. And I am super passionate about supporting that, and that's something that I don't know that I would've discovered if I'd stayed in Canada, maybe not. Mm-hmm. And so it's just keeping myself positive to that openness and to, to those experiences.

Megan 38:05

Absolutely. So we've done a lot of looking back and looking at the journey when you turn the other direction and look forward, what are you hopeful for, excited about looking forward to? Short-term, long-term? Doesn't necessarily have to be career. When you look forward, what you're, what are you excited about?

Jennifer 38:25

It's interesting, I'm just excited to keep working on fantastic projects with fantastic teams. A bit of the letting go of the plan is that I've let go of thinking about what 5, 10, 15 years is gonna look like because that hadn't served me in a way that I had thought that I was gonna need. So now I really try to think about what it is that the immediate, what are we all what are we all pulling together on? And so I do hope that things will continue in a way that is bringing a lot of joy to my life and challenge. Those two things don't always go together. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And that comes mostly as far as, as I've had my experiences working on exciting projects where I feel that they're delivering purpose and working with fantastic people. And so long as I keep doing that. I feel like I'm gonna be going in the right path. And if that ever starts to feel like it's being compromised to look to you, find some different direction. And and I think the other thing is, is that I have really made sure that I take the time to take the benefits of where I live. You know, the little short trips across to Europe that 16-year-old me would've been thinking this pretty cool to be able to hop on a train to spend the weekend in Paris. Don't lose sight of those things as well. That's the benefits of the career that I have is that it affords me the ability to take those trips and have that bit of downtime as well.

Megan 40:04

I love that, and I love that there's balance in that, a balance of the career ambition, but also what that career looks like. And then of course, a little bit of fun in there too.

Jennifer 40:15

Yeah.

Megan 40:16

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your career journey and your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I learned some things. There were some things I didn't know and I've known you practically my whole life there

Jennifer 40:29

you

Megan 40:29

go. That's pretty cool.

Jennifer 40:30

Yeah.

Megan 40:31

Excellent. So thank you.

Jennifer 40:33

Great. You're welcome.

40:36

What I love about these conversations is that even with someone I've known most of my life, I've learned something new. A few things I've taken away from my conversation with Jennifer is one, resilience. Jennifer faced some big challenges along her journey, from academic probation to being in a new country and her personal life not going to plan. to even the nature of a construction site early in her career. And she has continued to find ways forward or around. No path is free of difficulty and it is so important to keep going, even if that might mean a pivot in your own journey. Two, the importance of your team. You hear time and again in Jennifer's career about the fantastic team she's been a part of and what a difference that makes in difficult times or when working on tricky or complex projects. Three, passion. Jennifer is so clearly passionate about construction and she has fueled this by prioritizing opportunities that are driven by purpose. It also inspires her to give back to the industry as well. And I love Jennifer's advice to just let it ride. You can't plan for everything. Even in a career like hers, where she has been excited to continue to explore the direction she picked right from graduation. There are things in your career and life you can't plan for, and that will change your direction in some way. So maybe let go of the plan a bit. thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.