Andrew Ta: People and Technology

S4E9: Andrew Ta started his career in Software Development and has worked in emerging technologies, consulting and now as a management consultant.

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I'm speaking with Andrew Ta, a management consultant for tech companies who built a career in software development, mobile, wireless, and emerging technologies

Andrew 0:41

Hey, Megan

Megan 0:42

Hey, Andrew. How are you?

Andrew 0:44

Not too bad.

Megan 0:46

Thank you for joining. And I always start right from the beginning of when you were small, like what did you want to be when you grew up?

Andrew 0:57

My parents were immigrants, so they always wanted me in a stable job, you know, wanna help people and stuff like that. So when I was young, I was like, "Oh, you know what? I'm gonna be a doctor." but, didn't work out because when I looked at the sight of blood, it didn't work for me. So I'm like, "That's one profession I'm not going into." And then as I grew older, it was one of those, I don't know if I trust myself to look after someone's life either. So it was a whole risk aversion to screwing over someone's life.

Megan 1:21

Yeah. Being able to manage blood is a pretty big prerequisite to being a doctor, for sure. It's also why I didn't go down that route.

Andrew 1:31

No. Something interesting though is through my work I actually had to sit through a surgery like a live surgery, and the doctors, first thing that they said was like, "If you pass out, you're in big trouble." So it was with a colleague of mine, because we were doing, supply chain management. Yeah. But yeah, that's a separate story. But, yeah, seeing the whole thing live, it was orthopedic, right, so, uh, bone and... I mean, knee and hip replacement, so it wasn't, anything, very gentle.

Megan 1:58

Oh, wow. Wow. So yeah, you ended up having to face it anyway.

Andrew 2:03

Yeah.

Megan 2:04

So sounds like you did not go down the medical route. So when it came time to think about university, what did you decide to do? Like, how did you make that decision?

Andrew 2:16

So I think with me growing up, I had, I played a lot of sports, lots of baseball, and then I played tennis. My brother was a competitive tennis player. And I played a lot of video games too, so I'm like, "You know what'd be great? If I could actually build video games." And not really looking into it, I guess the internet wasn't as plentiful of information as it is now. Yeah. Or wasn't even as accessible. But, it's like, oh yeah, I'll just go into computer science or something like that, or engineering just because then I can make these games. It'd be pretty interesting. So that's how I decided to get into that sort of tech space. And it ended up going to university doing a degree called physics and computer science at Wilfrid Laurier University. Basically it's a double major in physics- Mm-hmm and computing, which is there, there computing is sort of like a shorter version of an engineering. Yeah. So it was pretty, pretty interesting that way.

Megan 3:06

Oh, that's cool. I didn't know Laurier had that double degree.

Andrew 3:10

Yeah. Well, it's a double major. It's not a double degree. Yeah.

Megan 3:12

Or a

Andrew 3:12

double major. 'Cause they also have a double degree program- which is like business and computer science now so they've kind of expanded, because they're known for being a business school.

Megan 3:20

Mm-hmm. Cool. That would've been quite for the time, an innovative, double major to do, I would imagine.

Andrew 3:29

Yeah. So it was pretty interesting. A lot of things in university, it opens your eyes in what you want to do. Like the outcome is not the same as what the process is, right? And you always hear, "Trust the process." You go through the process, you're like, "Why am I learning about all these things?" Like, doing the nitty-gritty and the deep down dives of how things are done when it's already been done, right?

Megan 3:46

Hm.

Andrew 3:47

I think the application of the things that you learn, is a lot different, right? When you get out of the school and you're like, "Whoa," I can actually do real stuff, right? But it's good to have that learning there. And the thing with university is like when you start taking these courses, I think the big problem is, especially in some of these programs that have lots of these compulsory courses, is that once you're down that path, if you change your mind, you don't have much leeway, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause a lot of those other courses won't count to anything else. So it's better to figure that out earlier in the years, I think, if you're ever doubting that you may not be in the right field for you,

Megan 4:22

right? Yeah. I think there's a, like a couple good points in that. First, you don't know until you start trying something. Because things... And I had a similar, or maybe not similar, but when I went into university kind of a realization because I took physics, of, "Oh, maybe physics isn't the right degree for me. Like if I'm gonna stick in sciences, maybe chemistry would've been a better fit." and I didn't switch, namely just 'cause there's too many labs in chemistry, which is not a great reason not to switch. But you don't know until you're in it because some of those subjects in high school are very different than what they are in university. But, to your point, some of those degrees that have a lot of the compulsory classes, like sciences, if you wait too long to make the decision, and usually you do know in first year, like, "I don't think this is a fit," you can feel a bit stuck 'cause it means you would have to stay in school longer if you wanted to switch. So that's like a tricky thing. But you can switch if you want to, just maybe have to trust your gut a little bit earlier,

Andrew 5:23

and there's just some courses that you take that kind of just make you wonder, like, "Why am I even in this?" You know what I mean? The good thing is, if you look back now, and, you know, if we can rewind everything, taking some extra time at university isn't the end of the world, right? Mm-hmm. You have the potential to start working. I think some people wanna get out very quickly and just get into working world, but it's, it's trying to finding the right thing to be working on that... Because you're gonna have a long road ahead of you, right? And as hard as it seems at that time, it's actually not that hard, right? When you look at-

Megan 5:55

Yeah

Andrew 5:56

you look at it from that perspective.

Megan 5:58

Yeah, that's true. it's the same analogy, but, making it bigger of if you can decide in first year, that's easier, but actually even just deciding at that age, regardless of when you decide a university. And when you're young, take time to experiment and figure out what you are interested in, 'cause it is impossible to know when- Mm-hmm when you're in high school, what you wanna be when you grow up. And even when you're an adult you're still always on that journey, so it's a good point. What did you do after university? What was your first job after, doing this double major that was maybe, it sounds like maybe not a perfect fit?

Andrew 6:33

Yeah. So I actually... When I graduated was during the dot-com bust, not the boom. So it was booming, booming, booming, and then when I graduated, it was, there's weren't that many jobs. So then job searching was interesting at that point in time. So I ended up at a dental management company building dental software. I didn't know that thing even existed at that point in time, but, it was pretty interesting from that perspective. But, it wasn't my first job offer. So I was, like, looking for a job, looking for a job. I went through an interview, and then, it was very interesting because at the end they're like, "Oh, you know what? I have a good feeling about this. We, we need to get you on board." And then they're like, "And our product, we're building a web store for adult products." And I was like, "I don't know if I'm ready for something like this right out of..." So then I actually turned that job down and I took the other one, but it was very interesting is that, that's when all the whole e-commerce and everything was building up and it was, like, very at the forefront, but very interesting as in, like, experience for me, right? So, yeah. I went for the dental software job. Traveled around doing some conversions for systems and stuff like that. So there's a customer aspect to it too. Mm. So it wasn't just like a behind the scenes coder or developer at that point in time.

Megan 7:50

That's really cool. I think the stereotype of, a more technical job is it doesn't have that client-facing side, so it's cool to have both of those, and already a little bit full circle, 'cause it's in the medical realm, of working for dental software. So that's pretty cool.

Andrew 8:09

It was great, a great learning experience. And being able to interact with the customers who are using your product actually is very... I think it helps later on when you can put yourself in their shoes a little bit better, and then hear feedback straight from the customer rather than through emails or messy phone calls or anything like that.

Megan 8:28

It's a really important skill, and nice to get that early in your first job, for sure. So maybe take me a little bit on the journey from that very first job in dental software to what you're doing now.

Andrew 8:43

So what I'm doing now, basically I'm doing management consulting for tech companies. I think it's a transformative thing going on with businesses nowadays. But because of the business background, right, and the MBA and whatnot it's more well-rounded in terms of understanding how businesses work and changing tech companies. You can see there's a big change in tech companies over the last 10 years or whatnot as in they're no longer those, you know- geeky guys at the back just building stuff that people don't wanna use. But they're actually very influential now because there's, you know, the NASDAQ is crazy, right? In terms of valuations. Yeah. AI is eating the world. You know, just the fact that it is a life-changing field, in multiple ways that touches different industries that is great, for learning. So in the management consulting side, I've been doing the technical side, but also- Mm-hmm working with companies on building culture, the right culture. A lot of these smaller companies, I'd say, like less than 200 people, are in this conundrum where they've got these businesses that are doing well or they don't know how to run it properly or they just want help, right? To figure out how to optimize that, right? And at the same time, from products and to services there's always something very similar across the line, right? And it's listening to the customers, making sure they're building the right products, making sure product management pipelines are built properly, and you get that constant or continuous improvement, right? That you get. And basically it's like how do you make money, right? And you have to make sure that whatever that machine feeds into something that is sustainable for the long run. So a lot of these companies that I have worked with, they are more traditional legacy type of revenues.

Megan 10:23

Mm-hmm.

Andrew 10:23

That they're trying to move into SaaS based and stuff like that. But it really depends on, sometimes they put the cart before the horse, and it's like build a good foundation, make sure you have the right team before you can actually go after the revenues. Because I think what I've seen through some of the companies is forecasting sales and stuff like that seems like a black art- Mm-hmm or a big guessing game, right? One of the companies I work with was, in consumer packaged goods. So this is a great thing because technology covers all different sort of industries. You're in everything, right? So understanding how- Mm-hmm those businesses work really interests me, right? And CPGs, working with the Walmarts, the Costcos, and how that sort of relationship works, right? It's great, right? So for me, being able to work with the companies that I've worked with allows me to understand other industries and keeps my brain satisfied that I'm learning stuff, like continuously building my knowledge base as well. Which I think is the core of what makes me tick in terms of what's enjoyment for me is learning new things, right?

Megan 11:22

And to your point the tech industry... Well, first of all, it's not even an industry anymore, 'cause it touches literally everything. And but it has changed a lot in terms of for traditional companies. It's something they actually have to think about now, and maybe changing business models, as you mentioned. And then for your more kind of pure tech companies, not everyone has had your experience of being in front of customers right from the beginning of their journey, so that can be its own journey. Or, you know, they were a small startup and then shifting to being a scale-up is a really hard transition the culture that maybe worked in the startup world where it's a few people who just roll up their sleeves and do everything, and communication's really easy 'cause there's like five of you sitting in a room together, is very different when you start to be a company of, like, 200 people and you're trying to do things in an efficient way and not be a bottleneck or what have you. There's so much in there. And yeah, also to your point it touches every industry, so that's exciting.

Andrew 12:22

Well, what was really interesting was we worked with a company I was working with, we worked with Facebook early days, right? And when you go to their campus before, it was like- Mm-hmm Everything's there. Everything's paid for. Everything's great. There's all people just walking around. Like, you see Mark Zuckerberg just walking around. Nope, like it's another day. And then fast-forward maybe three, four years after that, after they started getting really big, you go to, say, the cafeteria before it was you just walk, grab your stuff. Now there's line-ups, right?

Megan 12:50

Mm-hmm. And

Andrew 12:50

I think that's the thing people fail to realize sometimes, that these companies that, these tech companies that move from startup to scale-up and to, large companies- Seeing that transition between the two, it's what you learn through big businesses, right? Like, why do they last a long time? You have to put rules in, and you have to have processes and stuff like that. So they're not the Wild West as they used to be, right? Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of the times people break off, start their own companies to get that freshness, kind of get that, ability to stretch a little bit without having legal and stuff like that involved in everything you do, right? Because it's not that big of a deal yet, right? so having that autonomy to do what you wanna do, I think, is really important to preserve as well, right? For especially nowadays.

Megan 13:37

Mm-hmm. And there's definitely some people who thrive better in that environment, and then some people who are like, "Okay, I like the structure of being in a larger organization." And in that shift, you will obviously lose people because that change in culture, although necessary, isn't gonna be for everyone.

Andrew 13:56

Yeah. And I think the great things you can take away from it is the fact that there is law and order in all these large corporations, right? Banks and telcos and whatever. It takes a long time for them to do things because there's a lot of checks and balances. Mm-hmm. And when you work with some of these companies, I'm talking the smaller companies that haven't ever seen that, you know what works, what doesn't work, and what to implement at what sort of time, that you can really be a benefit for them. Because, without knowing, you don't know, right? So- you kind of trickle down, and I think that's the trickle-down technology, trickle-down processes and stuff that really help business be able to succeed a little bit better nowadays, especially with the advent of ChatGPT and all the other ones. They're getting information from one side, but then you can also have someone who has actually been there and done it, right?

Megan 14:38

Yeah.

Andrew 14:38

To give guidance.

Megan 14:40

And then people like yourself who understand- not just technology, but how it can work from a business standpoint and give them some of that perspective. So how did you get into management consulting in the tech space from, essentially going out and rolling out implementations of dental software?

Andrew 15:01

That's a good question because I think I'd kill myself if I had to do that all the time. I think the change is like... The biggest thing- that's the same within my career has been constant change. So technology actually has been a great vehicle because it always changes. It disrupts. It makes you rethink like how things should be done. And I think the MBA program was a big, it was more of a learning experience for myself that I'm like... I was more on the technical side, and I was- More on, you know, "What are these sales guys? How do they tick?" You're the guy doing all the work behind the scenes, and these sales guys are going out there and selling this stuff. Overselling. You're like, "Don't sell it this way," and they're- Yeah they sell it that way, right? And then you have to deliver on it.

Megan 15:39

Yeah.

Andrew 15:39

So that was one of the things I wanted to learn. How does this whole, how is the, you know, the sausage made in a way that you can understand like why people make decisions. And I think- Mm-hmm that's the biggest thing I've learned. And even through the MBA program, it was more understanding more about myself and what shortcomings are there and why people do things that they do. And I think that's why getting into management consulting, getting people management and whatnot is... The fundamental thing I think the problem is leadership itself is never taught.

Megan 16:10

Yeah. Right?

Andrew 16:11

Or if it's taught, it's taught in a certain way. But it's kind of like how do you go through the process to get to what leadership actually is.

Megan 16:17

Mm-hmm.

Andrew 16:18

And I think that's why getting to management consultant, it's interesting 'cause I was doing regular consulting before that and, sometimes when you're doing consulting and then the goal in some of the organizations is to keep your engagement going, right? Because, you know, you're an employee, but you're also a salesman-

Megan 16:35

Mm-hmm

Andrew 16:35

as a consultant, right? 'Cause they want you to continue, and you wanna, billable hours, et cetera. But at the same time, it's a little bit different in a way that, Cause you lift up a rock and then 10 things scurry away, right? So you, so you see the real problems. You're like, "Which one do I tackle now," right? So realizing that the army of one is not as good as the army of, a full team, um, led me to people management and then managing the business side, right? So it's really It has been a really good journey to see how, good leadership can make changes. You've always had that sort of mentor, that person that you've looked at like, "That, that's a good leader right there," right? But you can just point them out rather than saying "This person's a great leader because they have these certifications, they did this training," or whatnot, right? Because, being able to maximize the potential of your team means trying to build your team at all times, right? Right. Rather than just letting it run.

Megan 17:30

And leadership isn't just a certificate. You can't get it through a certificate really. Obviously the training is helpful but it needs to be an ongoing real time thing, and it isn't really taught. It can be taught, but it can't be taught in like a one time and you're done. It's not. I saw something probably on Instagram and I'm gonna misquote it terribly, but it was essentially like a graph of, you know, in sports you have a coach and your coaching is like 90% of what you do, coaching and practice, and like your actual games are like 10%. And then in business you flip that where they might send you on a training course once a year-

Andrew 18:16

Mm-hmm

Megan 18:16

but the rest of the time is like real life, real people's careers, real big strategic decisions you might be making, et cetera, with no coaching at all. You get this little bit of what they call coaching, but usually it's just like a, you know, once a year training program. And it's kind of crazy that is the reality and so many businesses are run that way, and huge decisions in the world come out of that, and people are just left to figure it out. That

Andrew 18:42

was very interesting. I found was one of the organizations I work with, every person had a bucket of training funds that they can use, and it always sat empty. And I think the problem is people forget about career management when they're in the careers- versus before, right? Before you're, "Oh, I'm gonna do this, this and this," and then you're in the job and you forget about, what should I do next, right? And that was a question, right? They come up like, "So what do you think I should be doing?" I'm like, "Where do you wanna be?" and so if you don't have a goal of what you wanna be in the future, like you said, when you're young what do you wanna do? You're like, "Oh, I wanna be a doctor," but I don't like blood. So what do you want to become? And this is the most eye-opening ones usually are, "I wanna go into people management." They're like, "Why?" "It's because that's the next level."

Megan 19:26

Yeah.

Andrew 19:26

Like, do you really wanna do that, right? It comes with a lot of caveats, right? So it's one of those things that you just can't say, "I wanna do this." Like- Yeah am I capable of doing that? Right? Will I enjoy doing that? And even if you get paid better, maybe your life's more miserable. So-

Megan 19:42

Yeah

Andrew 19:42

total outcome is actually worse than you're at right now if you don't think about it properly, right?

Megan 19:47

And even you can do some of that of looking at what you're doing today and be like, "What do I enjoy about my job today, and what do I not enjoy?" as you're making those decisions. And people management is such a good example because every- Okay, not everyone, but everyone wants it because it is the only way it seems to make more money, get more responsibility or authority. But actually for a lot of people, they love the thing they do, and the higher you go into people management and management and leadership, the less you get to do that thing.

Andrew 20:22

Yeah.

Megan 20:22

So it can be, yeah, as you said, like you might get paid more, but your life might be more miserable because you're not getting to do the thing you actually enjoy doing.

Andrew 20:32

And I think that one of the things that some leaders forget to do is that the people doing the work are a way for them to learn as well, right? Mm-hmm. So the fact that maybe you said, like you don't do it as much, maybe you should have more meetings to see what they're up to so you can actually keep yourself on top of what others things, right, that are happening. Mm-hmm. And to keep yourself up to date, right? I think at certain levels you lose that closeness to where you used to be, right? I'm never gonna go into software development again, but I'll understand the basics around it and how, what works, what doesn't work, and talk to other people about it. But I'm not gonna go and develop software, right? But having that level of knowledge allows you to understand what people are going through, right? So when they come with you with a problem, at least you can... You're sympathetic in a way that you can then understand. It's like leading by example, right? You're understanding that what the challenges are for them and how you can actually help them, right?

Megan 21:24

Yeah, 100%. So how did you make the decision to do an MBA? 'Cause that sounds like it was a bit of a turning point in your career, and that's where we met, so I'm also selfishly curious.

Andrew 21:38

Yeah, I think we were the younger ones in the group, too.

Megan 21:40

Yeah.

Andrew 21:41

So it was just to understand, like I said, the different facets of the business. It's like, how does the business actually get run, right? And the best way I find is to learn from other people. Other people who have a difference of opinion. If you all go into the same group of people that do all the same thing, there's a lot of groupthink. So learning by, from people from HR, from, you know, logistics, people who do other things. And learning that, you know, there's also the whole when you're young, it's... You look at those people kind of like, oh, they're untouchable. They're not easy to get to know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. But everyone is a person at the end of the day, right? You treat them like a person, then it's less, intimidating from that perspective, right? So business is one thing, but getting to know the people I think is very important 'cause it helps you form better bonds, right? That you can actually learn and be more open, right?

Megan 22:33

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a good point, and I think that was what was so good about our MBA, 'cause we did the executive MBA versus if you do, I guess it's called regular MBA. A lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people do that either right after doing undergrad or a couple years after, and so you might meet people from different industries, but they're all kind of the same level. They've been on a similar journey to you. But what is so amazing about the executive MBA is it's different people of different ages. As you said, we were like some of the younger ones in the class. Different stages in their career. Like you had to be at a minimum stage ob to do that MBA. But you know, there were people who had been like a CEO before, and then there were entrepreneurs in the class and then like completely different industries and functions. So I th- I do think that was, one of the things that was really amazing about doing an executive MBA. And then our class, in particular was a good open group. So that also was helpful.

Andrew 23:37

Yeah, and I think like it was interesting to understand why other people are doing it as well, right? Mm-hmm. A lot of people it was a check mark for them to get to whatever range that they needed in their organization or whatnot versus the one, like you said, entrepreneurs that are looking at, you know, how can I better run my business, right? So it's great that it was tailored sort of for each person, and I think there's a lot of exercises that make you think a little bit about that yourself. There's something I saw maybe on Instagram too, Ikigai or whatever it is that Japanese thing between it's like a Venn diagram of, the intersection of what you're good at, you know, what you like, and how you can make money. That's what your area should be, right? So it is kind of true in a way. You don't wanna go too far out, right? That you become a liability to yourself. But I think, the main thing is that, you know, being adaptable, being able to sort of, understand, different parts of the business really help you fit in, see how, not only how, you can contribute, but how the business is run and how decisions are made, right? So you can be more strategic in the way that you conduct yourself inside the organization.

Megan 24:44

Yeah. And it's another, way to- it's a low-risk way to experiment in terms of different types of problems, different types of industries, different types of functions because you do, at least in the executive program, have to cover all of those things. Like, there's a finance class, there's an operations class, there's a strategy class. You don't major again, I think in a regular MBA, and it does depend on school and program, but quite often you might focus on a particular area. And in the executive program, you don't. It is about that end-to-end holistic view and making those strategic decisions. And so you kind of need to have a little bit of knowledge of everything to do that.

Andrew 25:27

Sure.

Megan 25:28

So it's, yeah, a good way to also see what are those other things that might be interesting as well? So when you look back on your career journey, are there common threads that you see through the journey?

Andrew 25:41

Through the journey, I think, you know what's funny? Like going through the journey and whatnot, and the first thing I did was open my LinkedIn, like what did I actually do? But at the same time, I think that's one thing that, is important though now that I think about it, is to look in the rear view mirror, right? See what you've accomplished. Because sometimes you're so busy with what's happened today or what you want to do that you realize that you've actually done quite a lot, right? And, I think being able to change industries, learn new things, has really kept me interested throughout my career, right? And I think that's, that continuous learning, being able to see all these, almost like generational improvements in everything we're doing, right? From- Mm-hmm we're went from analog to digital, right? So from no internet- Yeah and phone line internet to like crazy fast speeds, and you realize how much productivity you can get out of a bunch of that stuff and how things have changed. But yeah, I think that whole thing is how do we do things better because we've seen so much change. It's like- Mm-hmm you know it's there versus some of the people have only... Uh, my, my kids nowadays, they just, they've grown up in this new generation that everything's just there, right? So it's really interesting for me to just keep learning and seeing things change, right? I think that's, the constant change and being able to adapt to it is a big thing, right? And doing what you enjoy also is very important, right? To keep your sanity.

Megan 27:00

Yeah. Yeah, keep leaning into things that are interesting or enjoyable. And

Andrew 27:06

also like doing the hard stuff, right? It, it's not, It's easy to just not really get involved and not, touch in all areas, but, you need to do the hard stuff. It makes things easier in the future, so it's almost like you're investing all your life, in... Before, you know, LLMs and stuff came in, knowledge was important, right, to accumulate, but I think now it's experience, right? That's really hard to accumulate rather than the knowledge, 'cause everything's out in the open. So it's like how do you put things together and, make it tailored for whoever that is?

Megan 27:37

I like that you used the word invest because I think that's a great way to look at it. And it is harder. Like, there are tools that make some things a lot easier, but sometimes actually it's better to do it the hard way for the experience. And also just, where things like LLMs are today, they're sometimes wrong. So it's also good to- Have enough knowledge to know, well maybe, maybe that's not quite right.

Andrew 28:04

It goes back to what we talked about university, right? The things you learn in university, I think, is you learn to learn.

Megan 28:09

Yeah. Right?

Andrew 28:09

You learn to learn hard things so then you can distill it for yourself, and then later on you've graduated to be able to use it the easy way. So- Mm-hmm so I think that there's that common theme as well, right? Doing the hard things to make things easier afterwards is like you said, it's an investment too, right? So it's, it's something that, I think we should always be doing, right? Whether it's in health, whether it's in your, you know, careers. There's, there's a lot of things that, are worthwhile to invest in.

Megan 28:35

100% agree. 100% agree. So what do you think, 15, 16-year-old you would think about what you're doing today?

Andrew 28:47

15 or 16-year-old me probably wouldn't think I'm doing what I'm doing today. But hopefully they're happy that things have worked out. I think 15, 16-year-old anyone, no matter how, determined and you know, thinking they can take on the world, know exactly what they're gonna do- Yeah are, don't really know what they wanna do, right? They're just, I think influences at that point in time between, your family, the industry, where you wanna be financially, play a bigger factor than they do as you get older. Then you can actually prioritize when you get older, and say, what, what's actually important to me, right? it's so, I think that's, 16-year-old would probably say, "Oh, I guess that's a better way of looking at things," right? Than just- Yeah I have this plan. You know, like, climb the ladder, do this, this, and this. Like, being, going off and doing your own business and stuff like that, they're, "Oh, that's pretty risky," right? But at the same time, it's the most fulfilling as well because every mistake you make is your own, right? Mm-hmm. To own up to. And yeah, it just gives you the autonomy to do what you want to do. And I think nowadays it's the best time, I mean, of all the, all the times to be, now's the best time to do whatever you want because, if anything that I've learned from my career, like especially going down to Silicon Valley, you can make money doing anything.

Megan 30:07

Mm-hmm.

Andrew 30:07

It's just how you frame it, how you can convince people you can make money, or what, if it's a good idea it'll work out, right? So being able to be flexible as well, I think is, allows you to do that.

Megan 30:22

Yeah. And I think, like, when we're 15 or 16, as you said, we only have, a limited viewpoint of what's possible in the world. We're obviously heavily influenced by our family but also, the things we see around us, what we see in school. And so yeah, there's just things that we can't even imagine which I think is... Yeah. No

Andrew 30:43

flying vehicles yet, but.

Megan 30:45

No. They're testing Waymo right now in London. So. Yeah. You know, driverless cars are coming. Just also thinking back to that word invest and what you were saying about now being a good time potentially for people to try their own thing. I think they really go together in terms of... And it is gonna depend on the thing, but actually trying those things and being okay with failing, especially when you're young, it's a bit easier. That is another investment in experience if you look at it that way, and look at obviously ideally you want things to work out, but what... If they don't, actually this is another experience I can take forward into my next idea, or maybe I had a really good idea but I didn't know how to sell it, so I'm gonna learn how to get better at selling. So it's another way to do that investment in yourself and get experience. And there's, you know, it's not the only way, but it is one avenue that's there for people. So,

Andrew 31:41

Well, I think that- Yeah word invest is very important because even- if you go back to younger you, the, the big recommendation is to invest early financially, too. So being able to take these risks or whatever always helps if you have a financial capability of doing it, right? So over your career you can either just, ride it out and that's it, or if you ever wanna change a career, it's good to have a little bit of backstop, right, for you to make these more riskier things, like, that you can You know, I think even for the people that, the great talent I've, managed in my life, it's always, I always tell them, be able to, take those risks, right? If there's a great opportunity that we can't match, then, you know, it'll be sad to see you go, but if I can't offer you anything close to that, then as long as it's not And financially is one thing, but then think about it from a career perspective, right? You have a long road ahead of you. So being able to, turn on a dime if you wanted to and just, maybe it's good to try this, right? I, I, if you're good at what you do, I think you can always be gainfully employed. Unless, like I said, unless it's really far out in left field, maybe not. But in most cases, I've seen lots of people make things work, right? And they're super happy at it, right? Or they're getting- Yeah to the next level that you can't offer them, right? Th- it's just not- Mm-hmm one of the things, like employee satisfaction and loyalty are, I think, are things that we take for granted, right? It's like, why do people wanna stay at a company? And you don't want it to be, oh, the pension plan, or I'm handcuffed because you know, my stocks have invested or stuff like that. Yeah. I see a lot of people being stuck in those places that are They don't wanna take it because of what's the cost, right? So if your investment, again, corporations do this, right? You, we all know, like RSUs, they just keep you going on and on and on, right? Until it becomes, does it make sense? But and sometimes, you just have to be brave enough to make that decision, right?

Megan 33:37

Yeah, and it's, yes, you have to sometimes make the decision because back to what we were talking about before, that balance of enjoying what you do and finding that Venn diagram. But also it's interesting because the golden handcuffs are risky for businesses too because most people I know who are in that situation, they're kind of just punching the clock a little bit. They're working, but, you know- Right are they working at the top? If they're wanting to leave and they're only staying for a pension or for stock vesting, they're not putting 100% or even 80%. So- And

Andrew 34:13

you know what the crazy thing is working with some of these companies is that the one thing that always gets overlooked is succession planning, too. So they're just gonna assume this person's gonna stay on there forever, but in the case they leave then what happens, right?

Megan 34:25

Yeah, they have no plan.

Andrew 34:26

So it becomes a business risk at the same time in multiple ways. It's, it's very interesting from that perspective.

Megan 34:32

Yeah. And then for the individuals who are in that position there's no perfect time to make a decision, but if you have another potential opportunity, you should take it even it might not work out. That is a risk with everything. But actually, you will have learned something, and by leaning into things that are interesting, you're gonna get something back from, and it- Mm-hmm doesn't have to be financial. It could be, oh, actually I will get to work on a completely different kind of project, or, maybe you have always wanted to be a people manager and haven't been able to, and, that's the opportunity. It could be so many different reasons you take it. Could be they're hybrid and right now you work for somewhere that's all in the office. There's so many reasons you could do it. But you will gain so much from a learning perspective, and it's, again, investing in that experience and learning. And I'm just gonna speak for myself here a little bit. I worked for the same company for a very long time, and part of the reason I was able to do that is because there was, we were acquired, then they acquired someone else, so it was always I was still learning. But once I got to the point of- not learning anymore. There wasn't as much in it for me personally. But on the flip side, because on my CV it looks like I was at the same place for a long time, and then that feels like a risk for companies who are looking to hire you. So, it is good to take risks, and this is, this podcast isn't about me, but it is one of the things, I do wish I had, taken more risks earlier in my life. And then, yeah, now, looking forward to embracing that more. And-

Andrew 36:07

Going back to this podcast isn't about you, one of the things I always tell people is if you can, go somewhere else. If you have- Yeah the opportunity, go to the US, go international, because you can't beat that sort of experience, right? Especially if you have nothing, if you have nothing holding you back. And a lot of the people I have worked with have done that, right? And they're like- Mm-hmm "Yeah, it's been great. It's an eye-opener," and it's... You learn a lot of, And it looks good on your resume too, right? That you're adaptable and you can move down and to wherever and, and be successful too. So it's not a fluke, right? That you- Yeah at this company, you've been a great, great employee.

Megan 36:42

Yeah, that's true. There, there are lots of other ways to take those risks, and moving is definitely a good one. Travel even. There are so many ways that you can explore and do that investment in your career. But yeah, I like what you were saying if there is an opportunity don't be afraid to take it. Like, give it a try.

Andrew 37:02

Especially for the young people that are out there and, trying to build that, getting up, climbing the ladder or whatnot. It's like it's a long ladder to climb. Not saying that with wherever you can pick up experience and accelerate that process to- for you to get there. It doesn't hurt, right?

Megan 37:17

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's not the only option as well. So, yes, surprisingly still in society that, that seems like the one path, the one way to have a successful life, but it isn't. It isn't the only option. So yes, invest in yourself to get experience. That might help accelerate, but then if you find it's not the right ladder for you, you get on a different ladder or get on a completely different thing altogether.

Andrew 37:45

And then like just understand, if you get off that ladder you're not gonna end up probably where you were before, right? Mm-hmm. And at the same time you might actually be at an equal level just because of the other experience, right? So it's-

Megan 37:57

Mm-hmm all

Andrew 37:58

cumulative. It's not just like a one-time thing. And I think right now, and especially with when I was working with other folks on my team, it was how do you build... And like you could be the smartest person in the room, if you can't communicate what you're doing to anybody else you're hosed, right? Because-

Megan 38:13

Yeah

Andrew 38:14

a lot of the soft skills I think nowadays that, there's more emphasis on soft skills, and I think it's very important because especially in tech, there's a lot of introverts, right? And the introverts, let me just put my head down, do good work, and then, you know, someone will realize it's good work. I'm like, no, that doesn't work that way. That's usually happened. You have to bubble itself up, right? Is you have to explain what you're doing, the relevance and how it's helping out the organization, et cetera. And especially in the team that I was managing, we did emerging mobile solutions, right? And that was stuff that's five years out. So how do you tell someone that you're not gonna get a pat on the back, right? You get to work on cool stuff, but none of your stuff's gonna be put into production until maybe five years later when you may not even be here, right? So it was very interesting, motivation because the question was so on the, our the employee satisfaction thing- It says, they're more satisfied with the organization because this, obviously, the stuff they're working on. Right. Then it tanks everyone's score, so it doesn't make you look good, right? Yeah. Like, you can't get penalized for being honest. Well, obviously, you can get penalized for being honest, but it's true, right? So different groups and organizations don't fit that same bill that everyone else does, right? So if you're working on things that are for the advancement of the company, not immediate or off strategy, but it's often on strategy, right? If you're in technology, who knows, right? You know, you don't get the accolades. So if You're okay with not getting accolades, and you wanna work on some cool stuff and, advance your career that way, then this works for you, right? But don't expect to go to President's Club, right? To generate, tons of revenue for that company, right? Because you're working in futures.

Megan 39:46

Not everything has an immediate payoff. and especially when, when you're working in emerging technologies, that's basically like the R&D department. So some things are gonna work and some things aren't, but even the things that will work, they will take a long time to come together.

Andrew 40:06

And even, in payments or whatever one regulatory change could just decimate a business, right?

Megan 40:11

Mm-hmm.

Andrew 40:11

So it's like you're working for the future, but you could get blocked at any time. So it's, for the people working on that stuff, what do you tell them after that, right?

Megan 40:20

Yeah.

Andrew 40:21

Back to the drawing board. But-

Megan 40:22

Yeah

Andrew 40:22

I mean, they need to foster that same sort of mentality, right? Okay, we'll go back to the drawing board, right? But if they get crushed, then you may be in the wrong role, right? If that's not clear what could happen. And I think it- Hmm careers are like that, right? Just because you do something, the end result might not be what you want it to be, but just can't just stop. You have to, reinvent what you're doing, reinvent yourself, try to move yourself down a different path. And I think that's the great thing with careers in general, is like anyone who's had that, straight line path, it's not, it's like not taking the scenic route.

Megan 40:54

Y-

Andrew 40:54

you can learn a lot on the scenic route, and, uh- Yeah mostly on your failures, right?

Megan 41:00

100%. I love the visual of that. And I think, it can be... It's especially if you enjoy learning, which I think is an innate human quality. I think some people maybe deprioritize it, but most people actually do enjoy learning new things. And so that scenic route can be quite enjoyable because you are learning lots of things. Yes, there is gonna be, difficulties along the way, but as you were saying, the resilience you gain from that actually is what can carry you forward and make you more prepared when a really big opportunity comes or discover, something new or you have a really good idea. You need that resilience to be able To be able to carry those things forward. And resilience is gained through overcoming failure, by keeping going when things are hard. And you only gain that experience, again, of that investment in yourself, you only gain that experience by taking some risks and trying some things and being willing to keep moving and learning from those things.

Andrew 42:09

Yeah. I think the other thing is you get a good appreciation of whatever, people are working on as well, right? It's like everyone's working on something of some level of depth that you have no idea about until you touch it, and you're like... Even though you might like, "Okay, I don't wanna do that"- it's good that you have someone there who's interested enough, that's found their thing that they enjoy doing, that you have that responsible person doing it. 'Cause that's, 'cause you're like, "That's definitely not me," right? But it, they're great to learn off of, right? It's not just what I want to do, it's what I don't want to do is very important as well, right? And but being proficient enough that you can say, "Okay, this is why it's so hard to do this. I need to appreciate what the work they're doing, but that's definitely something I don't wanna do," right? Yeah. So I think they're really make sure these people are taken care of or whatnot, right?

Megan 42:56

I think that's so true. Learning what we don't wanna do is just as important and useful along the journey. But to your point, also to understand, how much work goes into those other roles. And yeah, it might not be the right thing for you, but actually, there really isn't a role out there that isn't difficult. They're just difficult in different ways. Even the other day, someone was making a joke about, oh, kids just wanna be influencers. And just doing, TikTok for this podcast putting together clips and things, I'm like, "Do you know how hard it is?" Mm. Like, it's a really hard job to be an influencer and actually make money. Yes, we make a joke of it, but it's actually a really hard job. Having that appreciation for how hard those jobs are, and then if they're on your team, making sure you're taking care of them and you have enough understanding for to be able to manage them with empathy is really important.

Andrew 43:53

Yeah. Going back to the Instagram thing, that wasn't even a role back when we were young. So it's kudos that someone's actually carved out a niche that actually can sustain them by just doing that. Mm-hmm. And some people making, a lot of money off of it. But at the same time, it's kind of like, you know, successful startups, right? That's what I akin it to. Like, you only hear about the one successes, not the failures. Yes. Yeah. So, people aspire, and it's great that people try, but you can't kid yourself as, as well, right? Just you hear about all these stories about these wannabe influencers that go in there, "Oh, I want free food because I'm an influencer." I'm like, whoa. That's... Take a step back, right? You have to, there's still hard work, like you said, that gets put in- Yeah to be able to grow your account to a certain, extent and make real money off of it, right? And I think the most interesting are the ones you see the people, who just, you know, open the kimono and say, "This is how many views I have. This is how much money I make." But you're like- Yeah "Well, that's hardly any money that you've done-" Yeah

Megan 44:47

for all

Andrew 44:47

the effort you put in." And there

Megan 44:48

are some who really do share, and yeah, to, most of the one... I mean, I don't actually know that. I'm too old to really know the names of anyone. But a lot of the people I do see in my feed, they're doing a lot of things for free. Like, you have to build up your name, and so it's a lot of hard work and upfront investment. Actually, it's like a startup, as you said. I think that's a really great parallel. Of it is the same thing. You have to be really willing to invest upfront and a lot of, free... And it is hard work. So, and again, when you're young, it's like, oh, that looks glamorous and, you can make a lot of money. But to your point, we only see the ones who are successful- That's why you should- truly

Andrew 45:34

always have a backup plan if you wanna be an influencer.

Megan 45:37

Yeah, and you have to be willing to actually put in the work. And in that example, in the startup example, in the if you wanna be a doctor, you have to go to medical school, there's always this upfront- investment of, work and time that goes into everything. There isn't really, an easy career. So even- like working retail is one of the hardest jobs in the world, as an example. There's no easy job.

Andrew 46:03

Yeah. I think that, that goes back to what we were talking about. You have to put the hard work in, right? I think a lot of people, especially the younger kids nowadays, are looking for shortcuts for everything, right?

Megan 46:12

Mm-hmm.

Andrew 46:13

Everyone wants a shortcut, right? But, it's still, uh, I think hard work's still required, right? You still need to do the work in order to get to there. There's definitely a lot more shortcuts to make your life easier nowadays, but it's still, you still need to get through that the hard stuff before you get to the easy stuff.

Megan 46:29

Yeah. Yeah. And some of those shortcut- cuts are good for, your day-to-day stuff, but they can cost you in other areas, so just be aware of where you're using them and invest in the right places. Maybe we already touched on it, but if you could go back in time and give yourself advice, at any point in your career what advice would you like to go back and give yourself?

Andrew 46:55

I think if you believe in yourself, you could... E- everything's just gonna work out, right, at some point in time. And so if you put the work in, you're not gonna end up homeless on the street type of thing, right? And I think going back to that dental software company, I think the first time that really hit me was I was committing some code for the code base, and then I was, like, doing twice, three times. And then my boss at that time, he was like, why do you keep checking in and checking out this stuff?" And I'm like, "I wanna make sure it's perfect." He's like, "You're never gonna be perfect. You gotta trust yourself that you've done enough work, commit it, and then, you know, whatever happens happens, right? I'm okay with it. But don't kill yourself over making it perfect 'cause you're never gonna be perfect, right?" So I think that's, the first time I'm like, oh yeah, maybe you should trust yourself a little bit, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe you are capable, um more than you think you are, right? But that having that confidence but not arrogance, you know what I mean, is, is important, right?

Megan 47:53

That's really, really good advice. And yeah, there isn't anything, such thing as perfect, so, yeah, trusting yourself is... That's really good advice When you look forward, 'cause we've obviously looked back on the journey, but when you look forward, what are you excited about or hopeful for next?

Andrew 48:14

Well, I think this whole AI thing is a pivotal point. It's like industrial revolution 2.0. is it supposed to make us all look like we're in WALL-E, just sitting out there and enjoying our drinks and movies? And I think that the good thing about it is it's, it will fundamentally change how we all work, because I think it's one of the things that gravitates for the entire population, not necessarily just one niche of business or whatever. It'll touch every industry, make everything change in different ways. And I just wanna see how it affects, us as a society, right? And us as, you know, people in general. I've seen a lot of people who really rely on AI, right? It's almost like their instant companion now of, any question, they throw it through there first. I'm like, "Whatever's happened to thinking about it first," right? Or doing your own research before you ask it, right? And I'm afraid that sometimes, because it can hallucinate and stuff like that, but it's getting better, it'll, you know, make people just too dependent on that, and we'll lose, that human side of what makes us human. If everyone thinks the same and gets the same answers, we just assume that's it. So how do we continue to create new things, right? Because if it's the knowledge base of everything we, of humankind, right? That's all, past and present. Future-wise, if it influences everything we do for the future, do all, we all, you know, think the same way, do the same things? I hope not, right?

Megan 49:36

Yeah.

Andrew 49:36

So it's really gonna be interesting on how it plays out, affecting our lives, right? Because it is kind of the Wild West right now. We're in that startup phase where we're in the break fix, right? It's like, you know, it's broken, we'll fix something, right? Yeah. It's hallucinating, we'll fix something. But then we're doing it in real time. It's almost like when you release a product and it's beta. It's forever in beta Yeah. And then people are just using it, but then using it, like, as a production, right? So it's very interesting, 'cause I was talking to someone else, I'm like, you know, you're going back to, working with social media companies and stuff like that. You're the product, right? And It's individualized, every single time, right? For each person. Just think of your, when you, if you're with this companion that knows everything about you, right? Before they had to make inferences and stuff like that to, to build that profile around you, right? Now they don't, because you give them all that information

Megan 50:28

Yeah.

Andrew 50:29

So if it goes to advertise and it goes to ways, it just makes the whole groupthink a lot easier. What if they all start pointing us in a certain direction, right? Especially having younger kids, I wonder what their lives will be like when they hit- whether in the job force and whatnot. But I'm hopeful it's good. I think the good thing is humans have always been resilient. So, it'll be interesting to, to see the next 10 or 15 years. Hopefully for, for the better, right? But, yeah. It's, I think we're definitely gonna go through some roller coasters, right, before we get to that stage.

Megan 51:00

To your point, it's like the Industrial Revolution 2.0. It's a huge shift. And that's not easy. It wasn't easy then, and it's gonna probably be even harder now. I think what you were saying about groupthink, that was a perspective I hadn't thought of in that way. So I think that's really interesting. But to your point, I think humans are really resilient, and AI has so much capacity for good. It also has capacity for bad, but if it frees up more time for thinking and ideas, I think, as I was saying before, most humans fundamentally like learning. You know, it's one of those things that feeds us. And so if there's more time for that and thinking, potentially that's good, but there will probably be a percentage of the population, or this is what I'm worried about, where, as you said, it's feeding off the information of today and the past, and if the only new information is created from that same information, we end up in this sort of cycle where nothing new can come out of it. But I do think, humans do... We are fed by learning, and we are resilient. So it's just the in-between time might be interesting as we start to figure out what that looks like in the future and how we make space for that. And people, yeah, create a new way to do it, because it's a big change in the way we look at information, the way we find things out, the way, as you said, businesses will be able to, like, give us ads, things like that, that are so hyper-personalized on one hand. But on the other hand, maybe feeding from the same area. So, it's a big question, and we'll see what happens.

Andrew 52:50

Make sure everyone keeps their individuality, right?

Megan 52:52

Yeah. Yeah, and also humanity and community, and I think you kind of see that a little bit now, certainly in dialogue. I don't know if it's happening, in reality, of people do... Are starting, it feels like starting to crave that more, that community style and in person too, and, that's something that AI currently anyway can't- It doesn't have a seat at the table if you're there in person. Mm-hmm. Maybe there will be more of that. I don't know. But you do already see people craving or creating more in-person communities than maybe even, a couple years ago.

Andrew 53:30

And that could be something that comes out of it, right? It's, like, more free time. It frees you up to go see people more or whatnot.

Megan 53:35

Yeah, true.

Andrew 53:36

I think it comes down to productivity as well, right? It's like, how do you measure, and actually, there's another conversation I had with someone else, was in HR, right? So if you're working, you have, say you're two software developers, and they're supposed to use AI. A lot of these companies are saying you should be utilizing X percent of AI, right? They, that I boast that they use 50% AI or whatever it is. How do you do performance management?

Megan 54:01

Yeah.

Andrew 54:02

It's like, who's doing the work? Is it the person that's telling it what to do, or Are you outcomes-based? Are you, like, is it the hard worker, the guy who, like... Or the guy who can do it in 15 minutes, and then the guy does it, the other person does it, in, like, 30 minutes, right? So it, it becomes a who's doing the work, right? And how do you gauge performance, right? What's good will actually change as well, right?

Megan 54:23

It fundamentally can, and will change, everything about the way we do work. So it's... Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how all that stuff shakes out. And as you said, we're doing it all in real time of- Mm-hmm Using this thing that's still being worked on and improved and isn't quite there yet,

Andrew 54:42

yep.

Megan 54:43

Amazing. Thank you, Andrew. I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, so thank you for- Great talking to

Andrew 54:48

you

Megan 54:49

taking some time on your Monday to chat about your career and the lessons you've learned along the way, and advice. So I really appreciate it.

Andrew 54:58

Great. Thanks, Megan.

Megan 55:00

Awesome. Thank you.

55:03

It was so good to chat with Andrew about his career and the perspectives he's picked up along the way. Some of the things I took away from our conversation were: one, invest in yourself, not just financially and your health, which are obviously important, but also experiences, and be willing to take a chance for the opportunity to gain new experience. Two, continuous learning. Andrew was always curious to know how things worked and how people think, which he has explored in roles, but also it's what prompted him to pursue an MBA. Three, change is a constant. Andrew's background is in technology, which has changed so much since he started his career, which has helped him become very adaptable. But even for those of us not directly in tech, constant change isn't something we can shield ourselves from anymore And finally, Andrew's advice to believe in yourself and trust in your capabilities is such good advice. Perfection doesn't exist, so trust in yourself and have a little confidence without arrogance thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.